00001
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION - HUDSON COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. HUD-L-3520-04
PETER deVRIES and TIMOTHY
3 CARTER
TRANSCRIPT
4 OF PROCEEDING
Plaintiffs,
5 TRIAL DAY 3
Vs.
6
THE TOWN OF SECAUCUS,
7 Defendant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
8
HUDSON COUNTY COURTHOUSE
9 595 Newark Avenue
Jersey City, New Jersey 07306
10 Monday, May 12, 2008
Commencing 8:55 a.m.
11
B E F O R E:
12 HONORABLE BARBARA A. CURRAN
13 TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, CSR
LICENSE NO. XIO1983
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15
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20 SCHULMAN, WIEGMANN & ASSOCIATES
21 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
22 216 STELTON ROAD
23 SUITE C-1
24 PISCATAWAY, NEW JERSEY 08854
25 (732) - 752 - 7800
00002
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2
3 SMITH MULLIN, ESQS.
4 Attorneys for the Plaintiffs
5 240 Claremont Avenue
6 Montclair, New Jersey 07042
7 BY: NEIL MULLIN, ESQ.
8 NANCY ERIKA SMITH, ESQ.
9
10 PIRO, ZINNA, CIFELLI, PARIS & GENITEMPO, ESQS.
11 Attorneys for the Defendants
12 360 Passaic Avenue
13 Nutley, New Jersey 07110
14 BY: DANIEL R. BEVERE, ESQ.
15 DAVID M. PARIS, ESQ.
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00003
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS DIRECT VOIR CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
3 DIRE
4 TIMOTHY CARTER
5 By: Mr. Mullin 26
6 By: Mr. Bevere 107
7
8 E X H I B I T S
9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
10 P-163F Photo board 73
11 P-163G Photo board 74
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00004
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. We are
2 on the record. I will note for the record that
3 counsel are here. The plaintiffs are here.
4 There is no one here yet representing the Town,
5 but I'm sure there will be. And there has been
6 a request to go on the record. Mr. Mullin.
7 MR. MULLIN: Good morning, Your
8 Honor.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning.
10 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, you
11 recall that we requested that the defendants
12 turn over to us the tape of the voice mail left
13 by Tim Carter on May 1 to Mayor Elwell. And
14 they did.
15 MS. HAWKS: Your Honor.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
17 (Whereupon, a juror enters the
18 courtroom, then jury room.)
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, Miss
20 Hawks.
21 MS. HAWKS: You're welcome.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin.
23 MR. MULLIN: And this was
24 something we got at the last minute, although I
25 wasn't suggesting that there was any misconduct.
00005
1 It's just somehow it wasn't given to us, and
2 then they gave it to us.
3 And we -- last week we made --
4 had Tim Carter make a transcript of it and gave
5 a copy of the transcript to defendants last
6 week, towards the end of the week, maybe the
7 last day or day before, I don't recall.
8 I thought, to expedite things, I
9 would want to play the tape; and then we'd want
10 to have Mr. Carter say what's on it. My
11 application is to have Mr. Carter sit up there
12 and read the transcript he just made of it, as
13 opposed to standing next to the machine and we
14 start and stop it and he tells what's on it.
15 I don't know if defendants object
16 to this, but I thought it might be an easier
17 procedure.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
19 Mr. Bevere or Mr. Paris.
20 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, I guess
21 what I would like to do is I would like to at
22 least hear the tape first and make sure that the
23 transcript is an accurate -- accurate rendition
24 of what's on the tape.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: How long is the
00006
1 tape?
2 MR. MULLIN: It's only a minute or
3 two.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: That shouldn't be a
5 problem.
6 MR. PARIS: Can we do that right
7 now, then?
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Absolutely.
9 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Before we do
11 that -- I'm sorry.
12 (Whereupon, a juror enters the
13 courtroom, then jury room.)
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning.
15 JUROR: Good morning.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Before we do that I
17 just want to raise another issue to put
18 everybody on notice. We had motions and
19 opposition last week in regard to the Jersey
20 City incidents.
21 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: And I am not going
23 back on what I indicated by way of the
24 plaintiffs being able to comment on or -- or
25 testify as to the Jersey City incidents. I am
00007
1 going -- and I understand, you know, that
2 certainly there are questions about decision
3 with regard to not mentioning bloody rags; but
4 my findings were that -- or papers, but my
5 findings were that those were too prejudicial.
6 I did think about it, though,
7 over the weekend in regard to part of the
8 argument; and I don't think that I clarified or
9 even really reached an important aspect of it,
10 which is the talk -- the testimony by one or
11 both of the plaintiffs in regard to the incident
12 I found was fair for their state of mind for
13 their damages. That was what was raised.
14 My concern, Mr. Mullin, is any
15 comment saying that -- that we discussed in here
16 about it is in the second amended complaint,
17 that's part of the reason that I found that it
18 was appropriate in regard to their damages. But
19 any comment by plaintiffs -- certainly, the
20 plaintiffs couldn't do -- any comment by
21 counsel, unless there is a foundation I am not
22 aware of, saying it should have been amended, et
23 cetera, et cetera -- it should have been
24 investigated, even when during the case the
25 information was provided to the defense, without
00008
1 some expert saying that, that would not be
2 properly admissible as I understand it.
3 I did try -- thought about it the
4 other day, and I tried to find some cases on
5 point on Friday. And I'll tell you, frankly, I
6 haven't found any. You all may be able to find
7 some that -- as I said, I'm not a genius with
8 Lexus; but I couldn't find any.
9 So I just want to clarify that as
10 far as anyone saying it should have been
11 investigated even then, that cannot be done,
12 although I change nothing in regard to the
13 decision as far as what can be testified to.
14 So I just thought I should
15 clarify that. And if there are any further
16 issues, you know, we can certainly address those
17 because they will not delay anything today. I'm
18 not changing what can be testified to. I'm
19 simply changing any arguments or comments by
20 counsel.
21
22 Mr. Paris.
23 MR. PARIS: Judge, the limitation
24 in terms of the description of the towels
25 remains from what you had ruled last week?
00009
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes, that's what I
2 just -- yes, absolutely.
3 Mr. Mullin.
4 MR. MULLIN: Yes, I will just --
5 my -- I assume my objection to that is noted for
6 the record.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Absolutely. And
8 I'm not even asking you to comment now. I just
9 want to put it all on the record, to think about
10 it, if necessary.
11 MR. MULLIN: There was one other
12 issue, in limine issue about a sensitive Rule
13 403 matter; and that's the issue of injecting
14 race into this trial. I had my client testify
15 briefly but not fully about a conversation he
16 had with Sergeant Amodeo.
17 As Defendants know from the
18 deposition, the rest of that conversation was
19 that Mr. -- Sergeant Amodeo said that Blacks and
20 Hispanics and Jews are not welcome in the Town
21 of Secaucus. I did not have him testify about
22 that because I wanted to be consistent with the
23 position I took on Defendants eliciting
24 testimony about Mr. deVries' statement, that if
25 these were -- minorities were being attacked,
00010
1 the house would be circled with police cars.
2 So I know Your Honor hasn't fully
3 and finally ruled in limine on that issue, but I
4 know right now I would like -- I guess I need to
5 know now if race is going to be injected into
6 this case by that questioning. Then I should be
7 allowed and I haven't been barred -- I should be
8 allowed to have my client testify about those
9 racial matters that Amodeo put.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Thanks.
11 MR. MULLIN: Again, my position is
12 nobody should inject race into this case. It's
13 not a race discrimination case. These -- these
14 are subjects that are very hot button. And so,
15 Your Honor, I would ask for a ruling that
16 Mr. deVries' comment on the porch while he was
17 crying, while he was upset, that if these
18 were -- if we were minorities, this place would
19 be surrounded by police cars, that's not fair
20 game.
21 I am not going to have Tim Carter
22 testify to that. I do not intend to have
23 Mr. deVries testify to that. However, if Your
24 Honor allows it in, then I, in order to balance
25 that out, to bring -- to show how the issue of
00011
1 race arose that evening, I would ask that I be
2 allowed to have my client testify about what
3 Sergeant Amodeo said. Again, I think the wiser
4 course is not to have any of these matters in
5 this case.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
7 Mr. Paris or Mr. Bevere.
8 Mr. Paris.
9 MR. PARIS: Judge, I'm trying
10 to -- Counsel indicated that that statement,
11 that purported statement by Sergeant Amodeo was
12 testified to at depositions. And I -- I would
13 just ask who testified to that at deposition?
14 MR. MULLIN: Carter testified to
15 that.
16 MR. PARIS: Because I'm trying to
17 find that right now.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Excuse me,
19 Mr. Paris. Come on in. Good morning.
20 (Whereupon, two jurors enter the
21 courtroom, then jury room.)
22 JUROR: Good morning.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning.
24 JUROR: Good morning.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: May I suggest this?
00012
1 Why don't we go off the record. You can look
2 for that, and you can listen to the tape and
3 look at this transcript. Then we'll go back on
4 the record with the race issue. That just gives
5 you more time, so you're not rushed, Mr. Paris.
6 Any objection to that?
7 MR. MULLIN: No objection.
8 MR. PARIS: No, that's fine. I
9 found the reference. I found the reference.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. You found
11 the reference?
12 COURT CLERK: Back on the record?
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Do you want to
14 argue it now, Mr. Paris, or -- back on the
15 record.
16 MR. PARIS: Based upon -- based
17 upon Your Honor's prior ruling, my understanding
18 the only comment that I was allowed to make with
19 regard -- or basically in cross-examination was
20 that Mr. --
21 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sorry.
22 MR. PARIS: That's all right.
23 That's all right.
24 (Whereupon, a juror enters the
25 courtroom, then jury room.)
00013
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning.
2 JUROR: Good morning.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris.
4 MR. PARIS: That Mr. deVries had
5 commented that and it was essentially going to
6 be stated or asked that if this was some other
7 minority, there would be police cars all over
8 here. If -- if they're not going to comment, I
9 guess, about that comment, then I will not
10 necessarily cross-examine Mr. deVries on that
11 issue either.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, if they don't
13 comment, then it wouldn't be a matter of
14 necessarily; it wouldn't be -- he would not be
15 cross-examined on that, if he doesn't comment on
16 it, correct?
17 MR. PARIS: In other words, what
18 Counsel seems to be telling me is that
19 Mr. Carter is not going to testify as to that
20 alleged comment by Sergeant Amodeo.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Right. So then
22 there wouldn't be any cross on that.
23 MR. PARIS: Correct.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Right.
25 MR. MULLIN: Then further --
00014
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Then, when the
2 defense case is being put in, there could not be
3 any questioning or comment in regard to -- by
4 any defense witnesses in regard to the statement
5 made the night of the incident by the plaintiff.
6 I think what Mr. Mullin is saying --
7 MR. PARIS: No, I understand. I'm
8 just trying to -- you know, again, I -- I'm just
9 hearing this this morning, and I'm trying to
10 weigh determination or decision as to which way
11 to go. Mr. Carter had already testified as to
12 what Sergeant Amodeo had said to him that night.
13 That wasn't mentioned. That's fine. If they're
14 not going to mention it, then we won't.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: So I think,
16 honestly, that is in the best interest of
17 everybody. This is a very sensitive case; and
18 to inject race into it when, honestly, I would
19 not -- if that was an issue, that would be an
20 issue. But I think from, you know, the readings
21 that I have done in regard to motions and
22 whatever and certainly your arguments on both
23 sides, this is not a race issue at this point.
24 And to inject that I think would just, A, not be
25 reasonable, not really be relevant and would
00015
1 certainly be unduly prejudicial maybe on both
2 sides.
3 So that agreement is there will
4 be no questioning in regard to any race comments
5 allegedly made by the plaintiff or by Sergeant
6 Amodeo.
7 Anything else?
8 MR. MULLIN: Judge, I just would
9 like to clarify your prior ruling. I understand
10 as to -- well, number one, bloody rags are not
11 to be mentioned.
12 Number two --
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Just "bloody" was
14 my concern.
15 MR. MULLIN: Yeah, just "bloody"
16 is not to be mentioned. And no mention is to be
17 made that documents about this were forwarded to
18 Secaucus' lawyers and they didn't investigate
19 this?
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Exactly.
21 MR. MULLIN: Now, I know that's as
22 to the rags. And I just want to be clear. Is
23 that also as to the fact that the Secaucus
24 Department -- Department of Public Works trucks
25 showed up there --
00016
1 JUDGE CURRAN: No.
2 MR. MULLIN: -- and guys got
3 out -- they can raise the issue of that
4 information about that was forwarded to the
5 Secaucus --
6 JUDGE CURRAN: No, that is -- no
7 mention of any investigation.
8 MR. MULLIN: No mention of any
9 failure to investigate on these issues?
10 JUDGE CURRAN: They can talk
11 because of damages about the --
12 MR. MULLIN: Emotional distress --
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes. But no
14 mention of an investigation because, as I said,
15 even to be fair, the plaintiffs indicated that
16 the information was not provided to Secaucus at
17 best until the case had already been filed and
18 whatever.
19 MR. MULLIN: Right.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: And I couldn't find
21 any cases that would indicate there was a
22 requirement or that it would even be allowable
23 at that point, again, because there is no
24 expert. If there was an expert saying X, Y and
25 Z, that would be different.
00017
1 MR. MULLIN: That will be a
2 broader issue, which I'm sure we will revisit
3 again and again.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: I think you're
5 right.
6 MR. MULLIN: Just I will just
7 state for the record very, very briefly that we
8 have done extensive research over the weekend
9 about proving deliberate indifference. We have
10 not found a single case requiring a police
11 expert to demonstrate deliberate indifference.
12 Let me also add that the
13 overwhelming proofs in this case on the issue of
14 deliberate indifference are about what the Fire
15 Chief and the Town Council and Town
16 Administrator and the Mayor didn't do or did do,
17 as opposed to -- you even heard in my opening
18 what the police did, which it's important for me
19 to show sometimes that the police didn't take
20 the steps they needed to take to identify
21 because Your Honor has admitted into Evidence
22 the document from the State saying, well, we're
23 closing this because we couldn't identify
24 anybody. That's the central reason for this.
25 There are some instances of the police chief
00018
1 showing deliberate indifference.
2 But, really, the overwhelming
3 proofs in this case I just want to make it clear
4 for the record, so the Court is not confused,
5 are on the other side of the fence. Many cases,
6 I said in my opening, the police did exactly
7 what they ought to have done in this case. And
8 my client even praised the police, and rightly
9 so.
10 So I just want to be clear on the
11 record where I'm going with this case. This is
12 not a police negligence case. Never was. Not
13 filed to be a police negligent -- well, I won't
14 say not filed; but it is not a police negligence
15 case as to the state of it now. I just want to
16 be make Your Honor aware of that.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: I appreciate that
18 very much because it does help to know on both
19 sides, you know, exactly where everybody is
20 going.
21 I certainly wouldn't say my
22 research was extensive, but I also have just on
23 a continuing basis been trying to get a real
24 handle on the -- is there someone out? Thank
25 you.
00019
1 (Whereupon, a juror enters the
2 courtroom, then jury room.)
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning.
4 JUROR: Good morning.
5 MS. HAWKS: We are waiting on one
6 more.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
8 MS. HAWKS: You're welcome.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Real handle on this
10 question of an expert or not an expert. And I
11 think part of the problem we have here is as I
12 understand the plaintiffs' allegations, they are
13 certainly against the Town, they are also
14 against the elected officials of the Town. I
15 could not find any cases on point in regard to
16 expert testimony in regard to actions or
17 inactions of elected officials. And that, I
18 think, is -- is a complicating and/or maybe
19 oversimplifying problem that -- that we have
20 here.
21 But I understand totally as far
22 as -- I hope that I understand what the thrust
23 of the case is. I just finished a deliberate
24 indifference case, and it was a much cleaner
25 case in that it -- the basis was a medical
00020
1 malpractice case and then went beyond that.
2 This case, I think, is somewhat unique in regard
3 to the expert question.
4 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I
5 think -- I don't think; I know we will show you
6 a case that we found which says an expert is not
7 even allowed -- an expert is not even allowed to
8 testify as to whether or not Town officials
9 are -- not necessarily elected officials, show
10 deliberate indifference.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Exactly. Exactly,
12 because of the nature of the --
13 MR. MULLIN: Jury question.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Right.
15 MR. MULLIN: So, Judge, again I
16 want to remind you of something you ruled last
17 week; and I intend to follow it. When I get to
18 the Jersey City incident, I will be permitted to
19 ask a leading question of Mr. Carter. And I
20 will say, "Did you five days later find a pile
21 of dirty rags outside of your door?" And he can
22 answer it yes or no. Is that --
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Any objection to
24 that phrasing? As I indicated, "bloody" was my
25 concern because there is different connotation.
00021
1 MR. PARIS: Well, I -- if that's
2 going to be the question, I do have an issue.
3 There were a couple of rags. It wasn't a pile
4 of rags. I mean, there were a couple rags right
5 outside the door.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Do they know if
7 they were rags and/or papers? Because we heard
8 both terms interchangeably.
9 MR. BEVERE: Paper towels.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Paper towels.
11 That's what one of the depositions says, paper
12 towels.
13 MR. MULLIN: Let me check the
14 police report on that.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Pardon me.
16 MR. BEVERE: Tissues.
17 MR. MULLIN: Described as "bloody
18 tissues" by the police.
19 MR. PARIS: I have no problem if
20 he indicates that there were discarded towels or
21 tissues; I don't have any problem with that.
22 But to indicate there was a pile of rags is a
23 little bit overstated.
24 MR. MULLIN: I think what I'm
25 struggling with is the whole effect is lost, the
00022
1 whole -- you know, leaving some tissues outside
2 somebody's door, well, that's nothing. Leaving
3 bloody tissues outside somebody's door, that's a
4 threat of violence. I think with Your Honor's
5 ruling me not mentioning it at all and go to the
6 truck incident, you know, and then getting out
7 and going into his lobby and leave it at that
8 with my --
9 JUDGE CURRAN: My concern is that
10 there is just really, you know, little, if any,
11 nexus in Jersey City. Those kinds of tissues
12 or -- or whatever could have been put there --
13 the truck is a separate issue. The truck, there
14 is no question about that. But my concern about
15 that debris, towels, whatever you want to call
16 them, is that there are so -- the nexus is just
17 really tough. I was allowing it simply because
18 it happened so soon after the truck was seen.
19 But my concern about talking about bloody --
20 you're quite right, it does take away the
21 effect, frankly. That's what I'm trying to take
22 away is the overly prejudicial nature of
23 something that had such little nexus.
24 MR. MULLIN: I think we'll just
25 leave our disagreement on the record. You've
00023
1 ruled. I think what I'm going to have to do in
2 the face of this is not talk about what was left
3 there. First of all, I don't want to put my
4 client in a position of testifying about
5 something that isn't accurate as he saw it. And
6 I don't want to imply to the jury they were a
7 pile of something, when, in fact, they were
8 bloody rags.
9 I think, given your ruling, I
10 will not -- I will do the truck, I will do the
11 men getting out, going into his vestibule. I
12 will not mention the investigative issue. I
13 will not mention what, if anything, left in
14 front of the door and just leave it on the
15 record that I object.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. And
17 certainly, all of those objections are preserved
18 for appeal.
19 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: So that's not a
21 question.
22 MR. MULLIN: And then I -- counsel
23 wants to now listen to the tape and check the --
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes.
25 MR. BEVERE: Judge.
00024
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
2 MR. BEVERE: Can I not ask
3 permission to go to the men's room?
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Absolutely. Off
5 the record.
6 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
7 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
8 off the record.)
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Have you been able
10 to listen to the tape sufficiently, Mr. Paris?
11 MR. PARIS: Yeah, I have. I think
12 there is something inaudible at the end right in
13 that last phrase, but I don't think that it
14 really changes the overall context of what
15 message was left.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
17 Anything else on that issue, Mr.
18 Bevere?
19 MR. BEVERE: No, but I just have
20 to be standing.
21 MR. MULLIN: Do you have that --
22 that was my extra copy.
23 MR. PARIS: I'm sorry.
24 MR. MULLIN: I just gave it to you
25 because -- I gave you this already.
00025
1 MR. BEVERE: We have this.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: We are waiting for
3 one more juror, Miss Castelli?
4 COURT CLERK: That's right. Off
5 the record.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Off the record,
7 thank you.
8 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
9 off the record.)
10 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
11 approaching.
12 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
13 into the courtroom.)
14 COURT CLERK: All rise. On the
15 record, Judge.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. On the
17 record.
18 Good morning, Ladies and
19 Gentlemen. We are back on the record. I
20 appreciate your being here on time. I hope that
21 you didn't get too wet out there this morning.
22 As you know, this is the matter
23 of deVries and Carter versus the City of
24 Secaucus -- the Town of Secaucus, Docket Number
25 3520 of the 2004 term.
00026
1 I am going to ask if you will
2 please give your careful attention to the
3 plaintiff for continuation of the plaintiffs'
4 case.
5 Again I will remind you, it's not
6 as warm in here today, but if there is anything
7 that you need by way of the fans or whatever,
8 please let us know.
9 Mr. Mullin.
10 MR. MULLIN: Thank you, Your
11 Honor.
12 Good morning, Ladies and
13 Gentlemen.
14 Call Mr. Carter back to the
15 stand.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning,
17 Mr. Carter. Good morning. I'm required to
18 remind you that you are still under oath.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Please
21 be seated.
22 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
23 Q Good morning, Tim.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Move closer to the
25 mike.
00027
1 THE WITNESS: I can.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Sorry,
3 Mr. Mullin.
4 MR. MULLIN: No problem.
5 BY MR. MULLIN:
6 Q Settled in there, Tim? Good
7 morning, Tim.
8 A Good morning.
9 Q Tim, when last we left this
10 courtroom you had told the jury that on
11 April 30th or May 1 you became aware that the
12 firehouse had reopened after being shut for a
13 few days. Do you recall that testimony?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q And you then told the jury that
16 you called Mayor Elwell and -- the Mayor of
17 Secaucus and left a voice mail message on his
18 machine. Do you recall that testimony?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q Okay. What I would like to do now
21 is I would like to play a tape for you, a CD for
22 you. Just hold on a second and get Tony to set
23 it up.
24 MR. MULLIN: Do we have an exhibit
25 number for that, Tony? The document we are
00028
1 putting in the CD ROM is P-3 -- 392B.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: 392B.
3 MR. MULLIN: 392B for the record.
4 BY MR. MULLIN:
5 Q Okay. Here is what I'm going to
6 do, Mr. Carter. I'm going to have Tony just
7 play the tape. And then I'm going to ask you a
8 few questions about it, okay. We will do it all
9 at once first round through.
10 (Whereupon, an audiotape is
11 played.)
12 Q Now, Mr. Carter, let the record
13 reflect did you just hear the 392B tape played?
14 Sir, did you hear that?
15 A Yes --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- I did.
18 Q Did you recognize the voice on it?
19 Whose voice was that, for the record?
20 A It -- it doesn't sound likely but it's my
21 voice.
22 Q It was your voice?
23 A It doesn't sound like me; but it's my
24 words, my voice.
25 Q Is it your voice?
00029
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you, in fact, call the Mayor
3 and leave that message?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q Now, did you have an opportunity
6 to listen to that tape and make a transcript of
7 it as you heard it?
8 A I did.
9 Q All right. Let me show you what's
10 been marked as 392A. Is that your transcript of
11 the tape we just heard?
12 A Yes, it is.
13 Q Would you please at this time
14 clearly read it. Read that transcript to the
15 jury.
16 A Tim Carter to Mayor Elwell. Tim Carter.
17 Hi. This is on his home phone. Hi. This is
18 Tim Carter. I am one of the homos that lives by
19 the fire station. We just had the firemen come
20 by and yell, "The homos are home. The homos are
21 home. The homos are home." They can't -- came
22 out to the very front door, up to the porch and
23 then went up the street.
24 MR. PARIS: Excuse me, Your Honor.
25 May we be heard?
00030
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
2 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
3 discussion is held.)
4 MR. PARIS: I'm looking at a
5 statement that I thought he was reading from.
6 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
7 MR. PARIS: He is reading a very
8 different statement or he is embellishing it;
9 I'm not sure which.
10 MR. MULLIN: I think he went
11 with -- he suffers PTSD. I think he is just
12 flashing into the memory. I think I have to
13 remind him just to read the verbatim words.
14 MS. SMITH: He talked about the
15 porch.
16 MR. MULLIN: He talked about the
17 porch.
18 MR. PARIS: He is repeating things
19 an extra time. I didn't object to that, but he
20 went -- he doesn't know; he wasn't even there.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm going to
22 indicate that I am going to strike that --
23 MR. MULLIN: Right.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: -- and we are going
25 to start over. And if you don't mind, I'm
00031
1 afraid to instruct him because I don't want to
2 make him nervous. If you would instruct him
3 just read exactly what's on the paper the way it
4 is. Because I can see, although I don't have a
5 copy, that he is reading it almost question and
6 answer; but what is written there is not in a
7 question and answer format.
8 MR. MULLIN: May I offer an option
9 here? I can read it, if counsel --
10 MR. PARIS: No, I prefer not.
11 MR. MULLIN: Okay.
12 MR. PARIS: Because, frankly, Your
13 Honor, you know, in view of what happened
14 Thursday, I think there was a lot of leading
15 going on here.
16 MR. MULLIN: Oh, Your Honor --
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Let's --
18 MR. MULLIN: -- some blanket
19 objection --
20 MR. PARIS: It's not a blanket
21 objection.
22 MR. MULLIN: -- three days later.
23 MR. PARIS: I'm just saying I
24 would prefer witness read it.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Absolutely.
00032
1 MR. MULLIN: Can I just take him
2 aside?
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
4 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
5 concluded.)
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
7 Gentlemen, I think there has been a
8 misunderstanding, so I'm going to strike what
9 you just heard, what was just read, okay; and
10 then we'll proceed. No problem.
11 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
12 off the record.)
13 BY MR. MULLIN:
14 Q All right. So I will ask you to
15 read the transcript you just made 392A. Read it
16 slowly.
17 A And verbatim.
18 Q Only what's on the page. Even if
19 you have a recollection --
20 A Right.
21 Q -- just try to --
22 A It just sort of slipped in. I see what I
23 did. I apologize.
24 Q Start with, "This is Tim Carter."
25 A Hi. This is Tim Carter. I am one of the
00033
1 homos that lives by the fire station. We just
2 had some of the firemen come by and yell, "The
3 homos are home. The homos are home." They came
4 out to the front door. Then they went up the
5 street. And we called the police.
6 But I want to tell you something, Mayor
7 Elwell. I don't know what the heck is going on.
8 But I don't understand why you and the Fire
9 Chief cannot control and, at this point, sir,
10 these firemen. I don't understand it. I don't
11 understand it. If I were the Mayor of this
12 Town, I would have read them such a riot act
13 that they would not go anywhere near here.
14 Sir, I have always liked you. And I
15 know these other people. And I know you cannot
16 control everything. But I am upset right now
17 and -- because we are scared, we are scrambling
18 to get out of this Town, okay. And I know you
19 don't -- I am saying that. And I apologize if I
20 am being rude, but I do not understand. I
21 don't. I really don't. And we are scared of
22 this place. It is a redneck Town.
23 I've loved Secaucus. It's been great,
24 and we've been happy here. But you've got a
25 rotten piece of the apple going on here, sir.
00034
1 And if you were me and this were your family,
2 you would know how I feel.
3 Peter had part of something in his
4 heart transplanted. And Peter deVries, my
5 partner for 19 years. And this is not good for
6 him. It's really not. And it's terrible. It's
7 a disgraceful thing for a Town that we have
8 loved. And you've done so much for this Town, I
9 think, money-wise, if it matters. And I don't
10 understand it, okay. But I do thank you. Bye.
11 Q Did the Mayor personally ever call
12 you back after you called him?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Okay. And how -- how much longer
15 did you remain in Secaucus, as you tried to move
16 out, after that date?
17 A Before we could get out it was six
18 months.
19 Q Six months. During that six
20 months did the Mayor call you in response to
21 that call?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q During that six months did the
24 Mayor shut down that firehouse, the social wing
25 of that firehouse, the North End Firehouse?
00035
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Did the Fire Chief shut down the
3 social wing of that North End Firehouse during
4 those six months after that call?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Did the Town Administrator, Mr.
7 Iacono, shut down the social wing of that
8 firehouse after you made that call?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q For the next six months did you
11 see the people that attacked you out there near
12 that firehouse?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Tell the jury about that. How
15 would you see them? How would you hear them?
16 A Well, not the -- not the first Saturday,
17 but the second Saturday after the incident, as I
18 recall, it was Mother's Day weekend. And I had
19 been asked by Kohl's to come down on Sunday --
20 Saturday morning and work a few extra hours.
21 And so I did. And we went to work very early in
22 the morning and then got off like at noon or so.
23 But when I came -- and I was on foot.
24 I just walked down there and back. I walked by
25 the firehouse, and the firehouse station was
00036
1 open. And there were mainly adults there, but
2 in the parking lot of the fire station the men
3 had gathered. And I would say there were maybe
4 six or seven of them. And I even made the
5 point, because I was getting a little used to
6 what the police will ask, I said, "They're
7 drinking beer. It's 12:00 noon." And I knew
8 they would say, "What kind of beer?" And I
9 looked right at them, the big tall -- tall boy
10 Silver Bullets. They have a -- a can that sort
11 of makes them look like a bullet. And every
12 last one of them were drinking it. And we
13 documented it various ways.
14 Q Let me ask you a more general
15 question. During the six months from when you
16 made this call to when you managed to move out
17 of this Town, when you looked out your windows
18 when you were home, did you see any of the
19 firemen on the North End Firehouse? Did you see
20 them? Did you hear their voices?
21 A It never stopped. It never stopped.
22 Even during that first week that they --
23 supposedly the house was closed except for fire
24 emergencies, they continued to meet,
25 particularly the key players, led by Mr. Charles
00037
1 Snyder, Sr., whom you saw here yesterday, and
2 his son, Mr. Charles Snyder, Jr. And they were
3 in those houses all the time. And they had
4 their lights and they shined their lights into
5 the house. They would go into the firehouse. I
6 can't say that they had the music ripped up and
7 so forth because I don't remember that at all.
8 Q Focus on the light incident. Tell
9 the jury about the lights.
10 A They had the lights -- see, those lights,
11 they could sort of pull them up on those little
12 bump --
13 Q Which lights are you talking
14 about, Mr. Carter?
15 A The firemen's lights.
16 Q Of what? Of their cars?
17 A Of their vehicles.
18 Q Okay. Describe what happened.
19 A They would cut them on high beams; and
20 they would leave them, go into the fire station.
21 And we had no idea when they would return.
22 And --
23 Q And where were these lights aimed?
24 A They were aimed at our windows. They
25 would just pull them up along wherever we had
00038
1 windows. And in the living room, for example,
2 big, big picture window, they would just line
3 the cars up and cut on the lights.
4 They also had very high trucks with gun
5 racks and stuff in them and these big hunting
6 trucks and with giant wheels, and they would cut
7 those lights on. And they never left the
8 firehouse. Even when we thought they left
9 the --
10 Q Did you -- let me just focus you a
11 little. Did you report the incidents of them
12 shining their headlights into your house to the
13 police?
14 A Yes, we did. And Peter got involved in
15 that.
16 Q Did you do that on more than one
17 occasion?
18 A Yes. Peter got involved in that.
19 Q I just want to focus on your
20 testimony at this time.
21 A Okay.
22 Q Let me -- let me -- let me ask
23 another question. In the tape that you just
24 read the transcript of, you said to the Mayor
25 you were scared?
00039
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you remain scared during those
3 six months that you remained in Secaucus?
4 A You bet I'm scared. And I'm still
5 scared. And anybody in that position would be
6 scared. Even when -- even when they were --
7 supposedly had locked down for the night, Bobby
8 Kickey and his girlfriend and his friend Pat
9 Maxwell and his girlfriend were locked up in the
10 firehouse. And the -- and the guard caught them
11 at the night of the attack. He caught them at
12 3:00 in the morning -- after 3:00 in the
13 morning.
14 Q Is this something you are
15 reporting having read a police report?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Let's not go into more detail;
18 there's a police report.
19 Let me ask you about your efforts to --
20 to move. After this attack did you and Peter
21 make some efforts to move out of Town?
22 A Yeah, we made it clear right from the
23 very beginning there was no choice. We told
24 everyone. We were asked by Patrick, "Are you
25 moving?"
00040
1 "Yes."
2 Q Really I want to focus on the
3 specific efforts you made to move. Can you tell
4 the jury about that.
5 A Okay. We didn't know what to do or where
6 to go. We did not know New Jersey well. So
7 first I started with the area we knew best,
8 which is the area where Barnes & Noble is on
9 Route 3 -- off of Route 3. Barnes & Nobles. I
10 can't recall the name of that shopping center.
11 And there is a movie theater there and a grocery
12 store there. That's the place we felt most
13 comfortable around, so we started checking into
14 that. The problem time after time again were
15 the big dogs. They were definite problem.
16 Q Your two dogs?
17 A Yes, one of whom, Elli, weighed
18 134 pounds. And you know, I was calling and
19 calling. And so we went to our friend Bob, who
20 lives in Paterson. And he was encouraging us to
21 try to find someplace there that would be
22 reasonable, we could have a home, we could have
23 the dogs in it. But the fact is that the --
24 these places needed a lot of work. And Peter --
25 all Peter could do was do his job during the
00041
1 day.
2 Q Peter was trying to work at his
3 job?
4 A Yeah. And I just took care of everything
5 else.
6 Q Okay. And did you eventually find
7 a place?
8 A We did. You know, if you want to know
9 more, we explored the area. We explored the
10 possibility of buying, of looking. We went all
11 the way up to where Dowden Publishing is.
12 Q Tell the jury what Dowden
13 Publishing is.
14 A Dowden Publishing Company.
15 Q Tell why it's relevant to this.
16 A Is -- was Peter's place of employance --
17 of employment. It's almost up on the -- the
18 border to north -- to New York. So it was a
19 long way. The problem was the nearer we got up
20 there, the more the rents went up. So we really
21 didn't know what to do.
22 And when it became clear that we were
23 not going to find anything where they would let
24 us have the two dogs, we weren't coming up with
25 anything. We had to start facing the
00042
1 inevitable, which was we had to buy a house.
2 What could we do?
3 Q Did you do that?
4 A We did, indeed.
5 Q What did you end up buying?
6 A We ended up buying a prewar apartment. I
7 call it a "Woody Allen apartment."
8 MR. BEVERE: I'm sorry, I didn't
9 hear the --
10 THE WITNESS: I call it a "Woody
11 Allen apartment."
12 MR. BEVERE: No --
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Prewar.
14 MR. BEVERE: Prewar. I'm sorry.
15 BY MR. MULLIN:
16 A Prewar, a World War I apartment. And it
17 was -- it's gradually --
18 Q Located in what Town?
19 A Jersey City, New Jersey.
20 Q Is that where you live today?
21 A That is where we live today.
22 Q Okay. And when did you end up
23 moving out of Secaucus and into that apartment?
24 A When it was all said and done, we moved
25 on the night of November 11, 2004.
00043
1 Q I want to go back just very
2 briefly to around the time you called the Mayor.
3 After you called the Mayor did you call anyone
4 in the Police Department about this reopening of
5 the firehouse on May 1st?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Can you tell us who you called?
8 A The first person I called was Frank
9 Leanza.
10 Q Well, he is not in the Police
11 Department.
12 A Okay.
13 Q But you can tell us about that
14 call.
15 A He had left -- he had called on Tuesday
16 around 2:00.
17 Q Remind the jury who Frank Leanza
18 was with respect to the Town.
19 A He was the Town attorney. He had left
20 his cell phone. He had insisted that I called
21 him. He showed great concern. He said he lived
22 in Hoboken, as I recall. And he said, "I" --
23 "If I were you, I wouldn't live in Secaucus
24 either," as if I hadn't made up my mind. And so
25 he gave us his cell phone number.
00044
1 I said, "Thank you." But then -- any
2 problems -- but then we ran into this problem
3 with the -- with the firehouse being open. And
4 when I called him, I couldn't get in contact
5 with him at either number. And so finally I
6 called Dominic DeGennaro.
7 Q Is that Detective Dominic
8 DeGennaro?
9 A Detective Dominic DeGennaro.
10 Q Of the Secaucus Police Department?
11 A That's right.
12 Q Could you tell the jury about
13 that?
14 A He had just come on-duty at 2:00. And I
15 told him that Leanza had promised me that he
16 would return cell phone calls to me. He knew we
17 were scared. And between -- the QT, between
18 Dominic and I, he knew that Peter had to go out
19 on a business meeting that weekend. So I was
20 really afraid.
21 Q I want to focus -- excuse me,
22 Mr. Carter. I want to focus you on what you
23 said to Mr. DeGennaro -- Detective DeGennaro and
24 what he said to you in that phone call right
25 after they reopened the firehouse, if you
00045
1 recall.
2 A I said to him, "We are scared. I have
3 called Frank Leanza. I could not get an
4 answer."
5 His reply was, "I will call Frank
6 Leanza, and I can get an answer."
7 "Fine."
8 A little while later, maybe 20 minutes
9 later Dominic called back.
10 Q Is that Detective DeGennaro?
11 A Detective DeGennaro. Detective Dominic
12 DeGennaro called me back; and he said, "I have
13 called Frank Leanza, and he will be calling you
14 in a few minutes."
15 Q Frank Leanza ever call you?
16 A Frank Leanza never called me.
17 Q And is that all you recall of the
18 conversation with Detective DeGennaro? Did he
19 comment at all about the Mayor?
20 A At that point?
21 Q Okay. Was there any further
22 conversation with Detective DeGennaro?
23 A Yes. Peter packed and left to go away on
24 a business trip. So there I am, the weekend
25 happened. So I went out, and I got a lot more
00046
1 baking soda.
2 Q What did you do with the baking
3 soda?
4 A I put the baking soda all over the porch,
5 the steps, sidewalks, outside of windows, window
6 sills.
7 Q What did you imagine this baking
8 soda would do for you?
9 A I thought that if something happens, at
10 least they may be able to get a footprint.
11 Q Now, we're focusing on Dominic
12 DeGennaro and any conversation you may have had
13 after the opening of the firehouse.
14 A When I came back from the 99 cents store,
15 where I had gotten all these gadgets to try to
16 make like a camera was peering on them and so
17 forth, I -- I got up to the house and went in
18 the driveway. And I noticed a black SUV was
19 parked on the corner of Plank Road on the bottom
20 side of Schopmann. And that alarmed me, like
21 who is this person? So I got out and I just
22 started walking toward the house. And I heard,
23 "Tim, Tim," which scared me. But I turned
24 around; and there was Dominic, Detective --
25 Q DeGennaro?
00047
1 A -- DeGennaro. And I said, "What are you
2 doing there?"
3 And he said, "I was worried about you."
4 Because he knew they weren't putting any guard
5 on or anything. And he said, "I know it's hard;
6 but Tim, you got to understand Mayor Elwell is
7 between a rock and a hard place," meaning that
8 he was under pressure from these firemen
9 threatening to quit.
10 Q Focus on what Detective DeGennaro
11 said, as opposed to what you believe he meant.
12 A That's what he said to me.
13 Q Did he explain what he meant about
14 "between a rock and a hard place"?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What did he say in that regard?
17 A In this regard he explained that he --
18 that there had been a march on the Mayor's house
19 in which case the Fire Engine 2 firemen, 16 of
20 them, threatened to quit en masse, which would,
21 in effect, leave Secaucus without fire
22 protection or anyone to operate the new fire
23 truck, the boat, whatever.
24 And he said, "He is up against them
25 versus trying to manage this the way that it
00048
1 needs to be managed from a investigation point
2 of view."
3 Q Okay. Was Detective DeGennaro
4 compassionate in his tone?
5 A Yes, he was.
6 Q And in fairness to the Police
7 Department, as opposed to Fire Department, in
8 fairness to the Police Department, did they
9 ever -- did you ever see the Police Department
10 put a guard up at any time for some length of
11 time?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q Would you tell the jury about
14 that?
15 A Well, at -- at some point I was
16 looking -- I began the very night of the attack
17 looking for resources, like where can we go?
18 What do we do? And the first resource was The
19 Antiviolence Project in New York. And then
20 we -- we got -- I mentioned this because they
21 specifically gave us the advice that what we
22 needed to do was hide, to protect ourselves, to
23 hide.
24 And afterwards I just kept going for
25 any source of information I could. And I struck
00049
1 up a -- a correspondence of seven e-mails with a
2 professor at Rutgers.
3 Q I want to refocus you. I am going
4 to ask a very narrow question. At some point
5 did you actually notice that police had actually
6 put up 24-hour surveillance around your house?
7 A They did.
8 Q Okay. And for how many days
9 approximately did they do that?
10 A Four or five days.
11 Q Okay. And after that did you see
12 that 24-hour surveillance?
13 A It went away.
14 Q It went away. And did you ever
15 see it again?
16 A No.
17 Q Okay. Now, do you remember what
18 happened right before that 24-hour surveillance
19 period?
20 A Right before that we had been encouraged
21 by this attorney that we needed to be
22 represented by counsel for security. And Peter
23 was getting very upset about the lights shining
24 in the door. And I called Neil Mullin.
25 Q Okay. That's going to be an
00050
1 attorney-client privileged conversation; but
2 what you are saying is you retained me, right?
3 A Right.
4 Q As a lawyer, right?
5 A Right.
6 Q Did that become known publicly,
7 that you retained me? Did you tell the police?
8 A Yeah, it was in the paper.
9 Q Okay. How soon after that came
10 out did you get 24-hour surveillance?
11 A Almost immediately.
12 Q Okay. Now, I want to focus your
13 attention on some specific incidents in which
14 the Court has made certain rulings; and so I
15 will be very focused.
16 I will draw your attention to say May
17 of -- May, around May 18th. Was there -- do you
18 recall any incidents that you reported on that
19 date, even if they may not have all happened on
20 that date, concerning a car driving by and
21 something being yelled? And if you need to see
22 a police report to refresh your recollection,
23 let me know.
24 A There were so many, I'm getting it
25 confused.
00051
1 Q Do you need to see a police report
2 in order to refresh your recollection?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. MULLIN: May I, Your Honor?
5 A I get them confused.
6 Q Take your time. Hold it. All
7 right. I am going to show you a series of
8 documents D-123, D-124, D-126 and D-127 and
9 D-131. And I know defense counsel has to get
10 it. Let's pause a moment.
11 MR. BEVERE: I'm sorry, Judge. If
12 I can have those numbers.
13 MR. MULLIN: Let me do it more
14 slowly. So they will be D-123, D-124 -- 123,
15 124, 126, 127 and 131.
16 BY MR. MULLIN:
17 Q Tim, while they're looking, are
18 you on medication today?
19 A Antihistamines.
20 Q Okay.
21 MR. MULLIN: Are you ready,
22 Gentlemen.
23 MR. BEVERE: I am, thank you.
24 BY MR. MULLIN:
25 Q All right. Let me show you this
00052
1 police report, excuse me, D-123. I am going to
2 ask you to take a moment and look at it. Just
3 take a moment and look at it. Does that refresh
4 your recollection about any incident?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. Try without reading. Look
7 at the very -- and tell the jury what you recall
8 of that incident.
9 A Okay. There was a driver in a car. I
10 knew it was one of the firemen. See, I knew
11 their faces. I knew their cars. I didn't know
12 their names. And wherever I was, wherever he
13 would spot me -- I'd try to go to the library,
14 whatever -- he would drive around the corner and
15 scream, "Faggot, faggot."
16 Q And during what period of time was
17 this happening? Was this after the reopening of
18 the firehouse?
19 A This is after the opening of the --
20 reopening of the firehouse.
21 Q Okay. Continue.
22 A And it really continued until the very
23 time we left. It never abated.
24 Q Okay.
25 A And --
00053
1 Q Did you report that to the police,
2 this man driving back and forth?
3 A I reported everything to the police.
4 Q Okay.
5 A Unless it was maybe the last couple of
6 weeks.
7 Q Now you can look at D-123. And
8 I'll ask you does this police report accurately
9 report what you stated to the police? Says you
10 recognize the vehicle and you recognize him to
11 be one of the firemen from the North End Fire
12 Company. And you state you can identify the
13 actor, if you saw him.
14 A Right.
15 Q Does that accurately reflect what
16 you told the police?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q And I'll show you D-123. Refers
19 to same -- same drive-by. Refers to your giving
20 the police some sort of written description of
21 the perpetrator and the cars?
22 A That's right.
23 Q Does that accurately report what
24 you told the police?
25 A That's right. But I want to look at this
00054
1 a second.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin, while
3 he is looking at that, I apologize, I don't have
4 a copy of --
5 MR. MULLIN: Of these documents?
6 JUDGE CURRAN: So can you just
7 give me the date?
8 MR. MULLIN: Okay.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: I just need the
10 date of all of these, just so we can keep them
11 straight for the record.
12 MR. MULLIN: Sure, D-123 is a
13 report of Patrol Officer, Police Officer Moreda,
14 dated 5/18/04. That is the first document I
15 showed Mr. Carter. D-124 is by Officer Moreda
16 and is also dated 5/18, May 18th, '04. And the
17 first one, D-123, has Bates stamp number 751.
18 The second one has Bates stamp number 752.
19 BY MR. MULLIN:
20 A However, there is a difference between
21 the reports. And this is what was happening.
22 When this report was taken --
23 Q Referring to D-123 and D-124?
24 A No.
25 Q 124?
00055
1 A D-124. If you will notice the difference
2 between what's left out, they had completely
3 stopped even -- even pretending to take any kind
4 of notes. And I remember that report. And I
5 said, "Don't you need to take some kind of notes
6 down?"
7 And he said, "I can remember."
8 Q All right. And did you then
9 provide some of your own notes to that officer?
10 A Right.
11 Q I will show you D-126.
12 A Then, after it was over I was so
13 frustrated about it, I went and wrote down my
14 own little sad drawing of the car, what it --
15 sort of what it looked like, the information and
16 personally took it to the fire station.
17 Q Fire station?
18 A To the police, municipal building. And
19 gave it to the police clerk, so there would be
20 some record because he wasn't writing anything
21 down.
22 Q Okay. Will you please -- does
23 this document, D-126 --
24 MR. MULLIN: Which Your Honor
25 doesn't have a date on it, but it has Bates
00056
1 stamp number 761.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
3 BY MR. MULLIN:
4 Q Would you please read what you
5 wrote right above that picture of the car?
6 A Okay. I described it as thoroughly as
7 possible.
8 Q Please read what you wrote only.
9 Go ahead.
10 A "The car is old and worn. Perhaps a 1974
11 or so. Paint" -- "paint looks almost like
12 primer with gravy or some would say" -- "with
13 gray or some would say silver, I guess, paint.
14 Front oval headlights. Subject has yelled at me
15 before, but now I can identify him. The car is
16 often parked at or near the Fire Station 2,
17 although young firemen are not around as much.
18 He lives down the road living" -- "leading to
19 Dennis Elwell's house below apartments. If you
20 stop" -- "it may be firefighter, if you spot" --
21 oh, I was writing them a note to -- to -- I
22 went, passed it out.
23 Q If you can't read it, just say you
24 can't read it.
25 A I can read it. I'm telling you I was
00057
1 realizing I was handing it out to the policemen.
2 Q Okay.
3 A "If you can spot, it may be fire license
4 plates. I will see it sooner or later; but
5 could you keep an eye out, please."
6 Q Okay.
7 A "Tim Carter."
8 Q In all of these reports --
9 A Two-door, of course.
10 Q I'm sorry. Mr. Carter, in all of
11 these reports you have told the police that now
12 you can identify, you have seen the person you
13 are describing, you can identify him, right?
14 Did the police ever come by with photographs to
15 help you identify this person by name?
16 A No.
17 Q Did they ever conduct a lineup?
18 A No.
19 MR. BEVERE: I'm sorry, counsel --
20 MR. PARIS: Can we be heard at
21 sidebar?
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Yeah.
23 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
24 discussion is held.)
25 MR. BEVERE: Your Honor, did you
00058
1 not receive our documents?
2 JUDGE CURRAN: If I did, I don't
3 have that -- the only book I have is the white
4 book. Did you send it to us or give it to Miss
5 Castelli?
6 MR. BEVERE: I thought we handed
7 it in.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Handed it?
9 MR. BEVERE: You have a white --
10 JUDGE CURRAN: I have the white
11 book.
12 MR. BEVERE: Is that of our
13 documents or their documents?
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes, and then I
15 have the black plaintiffs book. And I will look
16 for that.
17 MR. BEVERE: So you have our
18 documents? I just want to make sure that you
19 have our documents.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: No, these are the
21 plaintiffs. This black book is the plaintiffs.
22 I will look for that. I just don't have it.
23 MR. BEVERE: Because --
24 JUDGE CURRAN: I went through
25 everything on Friday too.
00059
1 MR. BEVERE: -- we have an extra
2 copy in court, if Your Honor wants to look at
3 this one in the meantime.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Let me see first if
5 we can find it. Okay?
6 MR. BEVERE: Sure, sure.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: I just know I
8 don't -- I'm sorry.
9 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, question
10 was asked; and before I could object the witness
11 answered. And that was did the police conduct a
12 lineup? Now, here again and as we had indicate
13 last week, when Mr. Mullin started asking
14 questions about what the police did or didn't
15 do. We're talking about conducting a lineup.
16 That's something that requires some expertise in
17 terms of circumstances when a lineup is to be
18 conducted. And here again we are going to ask
19 the jury be directed to strike that answer with
20 regard to the lineup.
21 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, this is
22 not police negligence case. I can't say it
23 enough. Anybody with half a mind knows it's
24 common knowledge that one way to identify people
25 is to show them photographs so they can see the
00060
1 faces or have a lineup. These were municipal
2 employees. There is no problem with having a
3 lineup.
4 You know, it's just -- I'm -- I'm
5 in the zone of common knowledge, what everybody
6 knows. How do you identify anyone? Well, you
7 look at their photograph or you look at them.
8 This is within the zone of common knowledge.
9 The other thing is I'm not
10 proving a negligence case. I'm not proving
11 this -- this also goes to his state of mind,
12 which is nobody is helping him. He says, "I can
13 identify these people"; and they never take
14 further steps, never -- whenever he says -- they
15 don't take any further steps to help him
16 identify him. This contributes to his feeling
17 of helplessness, his fear that they are not
18 doing anything.
19 They can put police up who can
20 say, "We weren't allowed to do a lineup." They
21 can't get a police officer to say that under
22 oath. I can't imagine why they wouldn't do a
23 lineup. They won't get a police officer to say
24 under oath, "We can't take out photographs and
25 show them," unless they are willing to say
00061
1 something that isn't true and accurate.
2 Of course, all these things could
3 have been done. But they can put somebody up,
4 Your Honor, if they want to take that risk, and
5 say, for some strange reason, "We couldn't do
6 any identification procedures at all." I don't
7 believe they are going to produce someone who is
8 willing to make that statement.
9 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, the
10 question is whether the plaintiff can continue
11 to indicate that this wasn't done or that wasn't
12 done without an expert who is going to come in
13 and say that it should have been done under
14 these circumstances. This doesn't go to state
15 of mind because if his -- his state of mind may
16 have been made. He may have thought things
17 should have been done. But that's irrelevant
18 if -- you know, and I think part of the problem
19 was -- Mr. Carter is listening in on our
20 conversation right now, and I think this is --
21 you know.
22 MR. MULLIN: I see no evidence of
23 that.
24 MR. PARIS: You don't?
25 MR. MULLIN: No, he is ten feet
00062
1 away.
2 MR. PARIS: I hope he can't hear
3 this conversation.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Do you want him to
5 step down?
6 MR. PARIS: No, it's okay. But I
7 think that the answer should be stricken in
8 terms of these, you know, continual questions
9 about what the police should have done, okay,
10 and what -- and what they didn't do without
11 police practices expert.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: I will note the
13 objection, and I'm sure it's going to be a
14 continuing objection on both sides. As I
15 indicated earlier, when we were off the record,
16 I have thought about this quite a bit and
17 continue to think about it. And I am going to
18 indicate I'm going to make my decisions based on
19 the facts and the questions as we go along
20 because to have sort of blanket statement would
21 not be fair to either side.
22 I already indicated I believe
23 that certainly there were no expert in regard to
24 what is common knowledge. As I've already
25 indicated, I believe earlier, I believe that
00063
1 things like photo arrays or lineups are basic --
2 the fact that they exist are basically common
3 knowledge.
4 Now, as I indicated earlier too,
5 we have questions now in regard to lineups, the
6 way they can or can't be done. If I remember
7 correctly, they could have been done as exactly
8 that, lineups, in 2004. You didn't have to
9 bring in the individuals, which you now do. But
10 I find those are common knowledge.
11 If we get to questions like why
12 they didn't do DNA tests or why they didn't do
13 fingerprint tests on fabric, separate issue.
14 Those are not common knowledge.
15 But I don't think we need a
16 police expert in the -- in the context of these
17 questions. I don't think there has to be a
18 police expert to go to the issues in this
19 factual scenario. Mr. Mullin is asking was X, Y
20 and Z done? I find that certainly a lineup or
21 some investigation by police would be common
22 knowledge. The details of the investigation,
23 the expert, we can argue as we go through.
24 But I am goings to overrule the
25 objection. I am not going to strike the answer.
00064
1 But your objection is preserved, obviously, for
2 the bigger picture.
3 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
4 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
5
6 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
7 concluded.)
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin, you
9 may -- you may continue with this question.
10 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
11 BY MR. MULLIN:
12 Q I'll turn to D-127, which is the
13 day after the other police report. It's
14 May 19th, 2004. Has Bates stamp number 5. And
15 this indicates, Tim, that on May 19th you
16 called. And this is a Patrol Officer Torres.
17 And again did you -- take a look at that and
18 tell me if that accurately reports what you told
19 the officer on that day.
20 A Okay.
21 Q Is it generally accurate,
22 Mr. Carter?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. And again, you're talking
25 about the drive-by, people screaming "Faggot" at
00065
1 you, correct? Is that --
2 A At the beginning to -- at the beginning.
3 Q Yes.
4 A The two things -- they are two events
5 included in one.
6 Q Okay. What two events did you
7 tell Officer Torres about on -- on that May 19th
8 phone call?
9 A Okay, I apologize, it's a one -- it's a
10 one incident.
11 Q Okay.
12 A I placed another phone call, try to put
13 it on the record that I was constantly being
14 harassed by someone in this one -- two-door
15 grayish sports car not in great condition. It's
16 the one I described as looking as though it had
17 been painted with primer paint and not all the
18 same color, perhaps something getting it ready
19 to be painted. And I said that, you know, it
20 was happening so much I was never able to get
21 the fire law -- the -- the correct license plate
22 on it. And I knew it was a police license
23 plate. I couldn't get the license plate number
24 on it.
25 Q You knew it was a police license
00066
1 plate, you said?
2 A Not police, pardon me, Fire Department.
3 However --
4 Q Did you again indicate that you
5 could identify the driver --
6 A Right.
7 Q -- in this phone call?
8 A And I said I could identify the driver.
9 Q Did Officer Torres ever engage in
10 any procedures to assist you in firming up that
11 identification after this phone call; yes or no?
12 A No.
13 Q Okay.
14 A This is --
15 Q Now, let me just get to the next
16 question. Now, in this -- in this, as in
17 various -- well, in this police report do you
18 actually praise the police, as opposed to the
19 Fire Chief, the Town Administrator, the Mayor?
20 Do you praise the police here?
21 A I did because we were utterly dependent
22 for what security that we had upon trying, until
23 we could get out of there, upon trying to not
24 alienate these people. So I did not want to
25 come across full blast belligerent with them.
00067
1 Q And at this point, as of May 20th,
2 did you believe the police were doing their
3 jobs?
4 A At this point, yeah. It was not a
5 process where I woke up one morning and said,
6 "This isn't getting done." It took time because
7 there was things that that seemed good.
8 There is something else on there. You
9 don't want that?
10 Q What else do you want to put?
11 A This is important because the same two
12 officers who appeared at our door the night of
13 the attack, Officer Torres and Officer Ulrich --
14 Q Ulrich.
15 A -- Ulrich came to make the state -- take
16 the statement.
17 Q What do you mean? Statement about
18 which incident? This incident that we are
19 talking about, the drive-by?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Them yelling "Faggot"?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay.
24 A And Ulrich --
25 Q Ulrich.
00068
1 A Ulrich was seated in the passenger side,
2 and Torres was driving the vehicle. And so
3 Torres got out, took his notes, very politely.
4 And as he was getting back in the car, Ulrich
5 got out. And he said, "Tim, did you ever think
6 maybe this wasn't a bias crime? Did you ever
7 think maybe they just didn't like the twos of
8 you guys personally?"
9 And so I said, "How" -- "How could you
10 claim it wasn't a bias crime, you know?" It was
11 like the -- the icon for bias crimes because of
12 all the bias language and -- they made it very,
13 very ever so clearly what the problem was. And
14 moreover, there had never been any complaints of
15 any other nature against us.
16 So when they left, the next time I
17 talked to Dominic DeGennaro I told him of this
18 conversation. And I understand that there was a
19 meeting taking place.
20 Q That is going to be outside the
21 Rules of Evidence.
22 A Right.
23 Q But you told them about it?
24 A Right.
25 Q And this document we're looking
00069
1 at, D-127, that records your expressing this
2 unhappiness with those comments you just told
3 the jury about; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And there is one other
6 document in this series, D-131, which is the
7 next day, May 20th '04. It has a Bates stamp
8 number of 00009. And here you spoke to a
9 Lieutenant Malanka, and it reports you as
10 saying -- you said that, "Firemen drove by, is
11 definitely a North End Firehouse fireman." Do
12 you recall saying that to Lieutenant Malanka?
13 A I do.
14 Q Okay. And again, did you express
15 your support of the Police Chief and the police
16 in what you believed to be their efforts in this
17 regard?
18 A I did.
19 Q Okay.
20 A Wishful thinking.
21 Q Now, after you reported these
22 incidents, repeated drive-bys with firemen
23 yelling "Faggot" at you, did the Fire Chief, the
24 Mayor or Town Administrator at that point close
25 down the social wing of the firehouse?
00070
1 A No, it was up and operating.
2 Q I am going to use a blowup here.
3 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
4 Q Sir, I'm going to draw your
5 attention to first couple days in November while
6 you are still living there, before you moved.
7 Do you recall any incident involving something
8 on a wall?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Okay. I want to take you through
11 how you observed what you observed that day.
12 Okay. Approximately what time of night or day
13 did that incident occur?
14 A That incident occurred very, very late.
15 I'm thinking at least 11:30, 12.
16 Q Okay. And did that incident
17 involve you being out of the house?
18 A It did.
19 Q What was the occasion for you to
20 be out -- to leave your home at 988 Schopmann?
21 A Well, as I recall, this was already into
22 November. We were due to vacate Patrick Hjelm's
23 home on the 31st of October. He gave us a few
24 grace days; but obviously, he wanted us to get
25 out as soon as we could.
00071
1 So Peter and I were up late working.
2 And Peter wanted -- we needed gas in the car
3 because we were going to -- we were making a run
4 to Jersey City. And Peter wanted cigarettes.
5 And so he sent me to the nearest place to get
6 gas and cigarettes, which is -- I don't know how
7 to put it -- maybe three blocks. It's the --
8 it's across from Dunkin' Donuts on Plank Road.
9 And I went by. Would have driven right
10 by the fence that you are seeing now, which is
11 stone, big tall fence. And there was nothing on
12 the fence. I went back and -- although I knew
13 there were people in the Fire Station, the
14 lights were always -- I went back. I got the
15 car filled with gas and got Peter what he
16 wanted. And I turned. And when I came back and
17 my lights hit the wall, I saw sort of shiny
18 look, "El Homo."
19 Q Someone had written those words?
20 A Yes.
21 Q All right. Let's take this --
22 first of all, let's see if we can place that
23 wall. This is not a great photo, but you want
24 to come down here.
25 MR. MULLIN: Can we have the
00072
1 laser?
2 JUDGE CURRAN: We have also
3 located the infamous pointer.
4 MR. MULLIN: Oh, the pointer,
5 okay.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Mrs. Castelli found
7 it.
8 COURT CLERK: I got it.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
10 MR. MULLIN: This is a blowup
11 photograph, and it's marked P-163E.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
13 MR. MULLIN: And it has Bates
14 stamp number 971 on it. And even though it's
15 probably perfectly obvious to the jury at this
16 point what this is a photo of, let's, because a
17 record is being made, let's just very briefly
18 say what we're seeing here. What is this a
19 photo of?
20 A We are seeing Plank Road.
21 Q Is that Paterson Plank Road?
22 A Paterson Plank Road.
23 Q Where is your house?
24 A Our house is right here.
25 Q Okay.
00073
1 A And --
2 Q And is this the --
3 A -- the train stop and the --
4 Q -- bus stop?
5 A -- pay phone.
6 Q Excuse me.
7 A Bus stop, right.
8 Q And is this what we're talking
9 about, the firehouse?
10 A This is the firehouse.
11 Q Okay. Now, where was the wall
12 that had that writing on it with respect to this
13 firehouse door?
14 A Right across the street.
15 Q Right across the street?
16 A Right here.
17 Q Let's see if we have a photo.
18 A This is a big, impressive wall, well
19 built.
20 Q Let's see what we call this one.
21 MR. MULLIN: Let's give this a new
22 number. 163F. We will call this P-163F.
23 (Whereupon, photo board is
24 received and marked as Plaintiff's
25 Exhibit P-163F for Identification.)
00074
1 BY MR. MULLIN:
2 Q Come on over here, so the jury can
3 see. Okay.
4 MR. MULLIN: So now we're looking
5 at P-163F, which doesn't have a Bates stamp
6 number on it, Your Honor.
7 Q State for the record what we're
8 seeing here. First of all, what is this red
9 brick wall here?
10 A This is the emergency number that one can
11 call in a fire emergency.
12 Q What building is this?
13 A This is the Fire Station.
14 Q If I just turn around the corner,
15 do I see that big door where the engine is kept?
16 A Yes, you do.
17 Q And this the -- across the street,
18 is this the wall on which you saw the thing --
19 A Yes.
20 Q -- the words?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 (Whereupon, photo board is
23 received and marked as Plaintiff's
24 Exhibit P-163G for Identification.)
25 MR. MULLIN: P-163G, it is a photo
00075
1 of the wall with the words "El Homo" on it.
2 BY MR. MULLIN:
3 Q Now let me show you P-163G. Is
4 this what you saw as you drove back from the gas
5 station?
6 A Yes.
7 Q The words -- what do the words
8 say, for the record?
9 A The words say, "El Homo."
10 Q Okay.
11 A But throughout the whole summer, the
12 incidents beginning this "homo" is not -- it had
13 been used over and over.
14 Q Okay. You can take your seat
15 again. Take your seat again. Now, did you
16 report this incident to the police?
17 A Yes, that was an easy one to do.
18 Q Well, let me show you what's been
19 marked as Exhibit D-210. Okay. And I'll ask
20 you to -- have you seen this police report
21 before?
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Miss Smith, is it
23 possible to take that picture down maybe --
24 MS. SMITH: Sure, sure.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: -- just so that
00076
1 everybody -- thanks.
2 BY MR. MULLIN:
3 Q Have you seen this police report
4 before?
5 A I have.
6 Q Okay. Does it general -- with
7 general accuracy -- is it generally accurate in
8 terms of what it describes about your reporting
9 this incident? It says that you saw two
10 vehicles parked in the area near the wall --
11 A That's correct.
12 Q -- between midnight and 2:27 a.m.
13 A Yeah.
14 Q Sometime in there, right? Tell
15 the jury about that. When did you see those two
16 vehicles?
17 A All right.
18 Q Is it when you were driving out or
19 driving back or both?
20 A No, I was just looking out the window; I
21 could see them.
22 Q So you looked out your window just
23 before you headed out to go to the gas station?
24 A Yeah, because they don't usually park
25 over there.
00077
1 Q So you saw two vehicles. And it
2 says the vehicle -- you described the vehicles
3 in this police report, right?
4 A Right.
5 Q Okay. Did you have any
6 recognition of these vehicles?
7 A Yes, indeed, I did.
8 Q Tell the jury whether you
9 recognized them or not and what you recognized
10 them to be.
11 A It says -- it says, "0000 hours."
12 Q That's just their way of
13 specifying time. I am now going to focus your
14 attention on the vehicles, okay. And I am going
15 to ask you a question just about the two
16 vehicles, okay, Tim? What I want you to answer
17 is --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- had you seen those two vehicles
20 before?
21 A Yes, yes, yes.
22 Q What did you -- what did you
23 recognize those vehicles to be?
24 A The one vehicle is the black two-door
25 sports car similar to a TransAm parked in the
00078
1 firehouse lot in a small white -- and
2 staciled -- stencilled heavily. That is the one
3 that I got the license plate number on. It had
4 Fire Department license plates on it, and it was
5 registered to Robert Kickey, Sr.
6 Q And is that the fire -- is that
7 the car you saw parked in front of the wall
8 before you saw the words, "El Homo"?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Was there another car there, as
11 well?
12 A Yes, there was, sir.
13 Q Did you recognize that car at all?
14 A I did, indeed.
15 Q Okay. Did you recognize it to
16 be -- what did you recognize it to be?
17 A It was the small white vehicle that was
18 driven by Matt Snyder.
19 Q And was Matt Snyder a fireman at
20 the North End Firehouse?
21 A Yes.
22 Q So you saw these cars? You drove
23 out and the cars were there; is that right?
24 A Right.
25 Q And then you went to the gas
00079
1 station, right?
2 A Right.
3 Q And when you -- when you drove
4 back, did you pass that wall again?
5 A I did.
6 Q Were those cars there?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q And is that when you saw those --
9 the words, "El Homo"?
10 A I did.
11 Q Okay. And what did you do next
12 after you saw that?
13 A I went and got Peter.
14 Q Peter deVries, your partner?
15 A Peter deVries, my partner.
16 Q Okay. And what did you do next?
17 A He was a little more cooperative than I
18 thought he was going to be because it was late.
19 And I said, "Peter, I need your camera. We've
20 got to go out and take pictures, photographs of
21 this." And so he immediately complied, got his
22 camera equipment together, got dressed and
23 stuff.
24 And we went right across the road, and
25 he began taking photographs. As we were doing
00080
1 so, a woman police officer approached us. And
2 there we were, obviously, at 2:30 in the morning
3 taking these photographs. So she pulled over.
4 And we said that -- you know, that we
5 believed this was a bias slur, whatever. And
6 she was supportive of us in getting photographs
7 of it. And I think she took photographs
8 herself.
9 Q Okay. Now, you said you told her
10 you thought it was a bias incident, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Have you ever seen a police report
13 by Lieutenant Malanka D-212? Just take moment
14 and look at that. Have you seen this report?
15 A I have seen the report. Also, I'm very
16 familiar --
17 Q Hold on a second. It indicates
18 Lieutenant Malanka came out to follow up on the
19 El Homo incident. Do you remember Lieutenant
20 Malanka coming out?
21 A No.
22 Q Okay. You see it says in this
23 report that Detective Captain Buckley advised
24 Lieutenant Malanka that the El Homo incident was
25 not a bias incident? Do you see that? Were you
00081
1 ever told that the captain, the Detective
2 Captain said this was not a bias incident?
3 A No.
4 Q Did anyone ever advise you this
5 was not being treated as a bias incident?
6 A No.
7 Q So you moved on November 11th, was
8 it, 2004? Is that a yes?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Just generally, did you undergo,
11 following these incidents, psychological or
12 psychiatric treatment to deal with your fears
13 and whatever symptoms you suffered as a result
14 of all that we have been talking about?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Who did you treat with? Who were
17 you treating with?
18 A Primarily with Dr. Jack Almeleh.
19 Q Okay. And after these -- this
20 attack how often did you see Dr. Jack Almeleh?
21 A I saw Jack Almeleh twice a week, usually
22 in his office. But also he is a professor at
23 Mount Sinai, and I saw him there, professor of
24 medicine.
25 Q Did you ever increase from twice a
00082
1 week to once a week?
2 A Yes, sir, most certainly.
3 Q When did that happen?
4 A Pretty much immediately after this
5 happened. He had dropped me back to twice a
6 month and sometimes even once a month. And --
7 Q When had he dropped you back in --
8 we should inform the jury had you had -- before
9 these incidents have you had a relationship with
10 Dr. Almeleh as a therapist?
11 A Indeed, I had. I had known Jack for many
12 years and kept up a relationship, although we
13 were apart for a long time. But I had started
14 seeing him after I came back in 2001 from
15 Minnesota.
16 Q What had you been treating with
17 Dr. Almeleh about during the time before these
18 incidents?
19 A Strictly -- he is a cognitive behavioral
20 psychiatrist. Everything is directly oriented
21 toward behavior, changing behavior. You know,
22 you get a mission, you get a plan; and then you
23 stick to it.
24 And what had happened was I had defined
25 the plans that I wanted in my life, which is
00083
1 what we had planned to do when we came back,
2 that I would take some time to find myself,
3 whatever. There were limited horizons in the
4 church. And I had decided to form a group
5 call ADD-UP for people who are adults with ADD.
6 And I had been to Shire Pharmaceuticals, who
7 were interested in underwriting it. And he
8 thought I was really --
9 MR. PARIS: Objection, Your Honor.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
11 BY MR. MULLIN:
12 Q Don't tell us what he thought.
13 You can only tell us what you thought.
14 A Oh, okay.
15 Q Okay.
16 A I had gotten professionals who agreed to
17 be coaches for persons with ADD. The general
18 protocol now is that persons with ADD who are
19 really dysfunctional as a result of it -- adults
20 I'm talking about -- need drug treatment, they
21 need therapy and they need coaches. And when I
22 started looking for a coach, I found out they
23 were charging 175 for 45-minute sessions. And I
24 said, "How many families can afford that?"
25 And I took that idea simply to a few --
00084
1 shopped it around at a few pharmaceutical
2 companies until I got one interested. Once that
3 happened I got, through a lot of connections,
4 counselors who were willing to cut their fees
5 substantially to a reasonable fee so that if you
6 have a child with ADD, for $25 a week maybe they
7 would be able to spend an hour with a coach, as
8 opposed to spending $175.
9 Q So, Tim, before the incidents
10 we've been talking about in this trial you had a
11 therapeutic relationship with Dr. Almeleh; is
12 that what you told the jury?
13 A Did I? Deed.
14 Q But you are also telling the jury
15 you worked out some plans to form an
16 organization to help people with ADD. Is that
17 what you told the jury?
18 A I did tell them that, but that was not
19 just limited to Dr. Almeleh. I used his
20 contacts, but I went out and did the legwork and
21 brought everything together.
22 Q After the incidents in this trial
23 did you ever return to those plans to hold that
24 organization? Just need a yes or a no on that.
25 Is that a no?
00085
1 A No.
2 Q No? Speak up.
3 A No.
4 Q Okay. Now --
5 A I'm going back.
6 Q Now -- so after these incidents
7 and during these incidents you're saying you
8 treated with Dr. Almeleh; is that right?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And I think we may have done this
11 already, but I want to make sure the record has
12 it. Through him did you get certain medications
13 prescribed to deal with anxiety, depression,
14 things of that --
15 A I did.
16 Q And tell the jury what you got
17 prescribed.
18 A Well, they have used -- he has used a
19 prolifery of medications with me, trying to
20 different -- you know, but generally I have had
21 something to wake me and get me going in the
22 morning, either Adderall or Ritalin, both of
23 whom -- both of which are standard.
24 Q Okay.
25 A I have --
00086
1 Q How about depression; anything for
2 depression?
3 A The depression piece is rather recent. I
4 had had a CAT scan.
5 Q What medications has he given you
6 for depression?
7 A Zoloft.
8 Q Has he given you anything for
9 anxiety?
10 A He has only on occasionally given me
11 something for anxiety. There is a non-narcotic
12 called Paxil --
13 Q Okay.
14 A -- that I was on for sometime, which
15 caused me to gain so much weight. And -- but he
16 kept giving it to me when we were in Secaucus
17 because I needed it.
18 Q Have you ever been prescribed
19 anything for sleep?
20 A And it will also put you to sleep. Has
21 he prescribed --
22 Q Anything for sleep, Ambien, things
23 of that nature?
24 A When I get so I am not able to sleep,
25 there is nothing that can put me to sleep.
00087
1 Q Okay. Now, you've moved to Jersey
2 City as of November 11th, 2004. We have talked
3 about police reports in this case already. Did
4 you ever make any efforts after November 11th,
5 2004 to go back to Secaucus to get your police
6 reports?
7 A I did.
8 Q Tell us about that.
9 A Well, in -- on October -- December the
10 5th I think it was.
11 Q 2004?
12 A What was it?
13 Q Is it the year 2004 we're in?
14 A 2004. Kelly Smith, your -- one of the
15 attorneys --
16 Q All right. She is an attorney, so
17 you can't reveal any conversations --
18 A Right.
19 Q -- between you -- yourself and
20 Kelly Smith.
21 A Right. I -- I will leave her out of it.
22 I had to go to Secaucus. There was no other
23 way -- to try to get some final police reports.
24 Q Where did you go in Secaucus to
25 get those reports?
00088
1 A To the municipal -- municipal building.
2 Q And who did you see there?
3 A I saw the clerk of court.
4 Q Okay. And what did you request?
5 What did you say?
6 A I believe his name was Jim.
7 Q What was his name?
8 A I believe his name is Jim.
9 Q Okay. Not sure? Okay.
10 A I can describe him.
11 Q Go ahead.
12 A He is a smaller man. He is bald-headed.
13 Looks to be about 60 years old, glasses.
14 Q Okay. What did you say to him?
15 What did he say to you?
16 A I went to him armed with a letter from
17 the Attorney General saying that they were to
18 turn over certain documents which were needed.
19 And he said, "That letter is from the" --
20 "that" -- "the Attorney General. I don't work
21 for the Attorney General."
22 And so I said, "But sir, she is State
23 official, you know, the court system. You are a
24 clerk of court."
25 "I don't work for the Attorney
00089
1 General," he said.
2 So I said, "What do you advise me to
3 do?"
4 I had been sent there because they --
5 it was felt that I might have an easier time
6 getting the records. He said -- I said, "What
7 would you advise?"
8 And he stood there in the window. It
9 was Christmas. He had a heavyset woman typing
10 right beside him, so he said it in front of
11 somebody. And he looked at me and he said,
12 face-to-face, "Fuck you."
13 Q Now --
14 A You can look at my face and know I'm
15 telling you the truth.
16 Q Did you drive away?
17 A Nope. What happened is, for some reason,
18 the whole year just seemed to come crashing down
19 on me. And I started crying; and boy, did I
20 ever.
21 Q Where were you when you started
22 crying?
23 A I was in the lobby.
24 Q Of the municipal building?
25 A And I --
00090
1 Q Is that a yes?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Okay. Go ahead.
4 A And I had just enough money -- and I know
5 it's -- it's privileged. But I had just enough
6 money and knew her number by heart, and I called
7 Kelly.
8 Q Okay. Again, that's a privileged
9 conversation.
10 A That's what I said; it's privileged.
11 Q What did you do next?
12 A After I hung up with that and nothing
13 could be resolved with the clerk, I got in the
14 car. And I started driving up Route 3 toward
15 North Bergen. And right between Bally's, the
16 shopping center, you know, Stop & Shop -- on the
17 other side is Toys R Us. And I -- and I was
18 crying so hard that I pulled the car in and just
19 pulled it to the very back of that great big
20 parking lot.
21 Q What time of day do you suppose
22 this was?
23 A This is, I suppose, maybe 12:30
24 because --
25 Q 12:30?
00091
1 A Yeah.
2 Q Right after lunchtime? Is that
3 right after lunchtime?
4 A It would have been about -- I think that
5 they were closing, so maybe 12 -- 12, 12:30. It
6 was early.
7 Q In the afternoon?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q Thank you. Okay. Go ahead.
10 A Very early in the afternoon. And so I
11 was just sobbing. And I -- I -- I -- Peter
12 wasn't doing well. And I started crying. And I
13 just kept crying and crying and crying and
14 crying and crying. And I woke up, and it was
15 jet black. I had no idea where I was. It was
16 cold. And I looked at my cell phone, and it was
17 almost 9:30.
18 Q At night?
19 A And the first thing I thought is I'm
20 scared, you know, to be in this car. I
21 shouldn't -- it wasn't the best idea, but the
22 cell phone had gone dead, so I couldn't even
23 call Peter and, you know, just sort of got my
24 courage together and drove home down Kennedy
25 Boulevard to -- to the new home. But I had
00092
1 slept for like, I don't know, eight hours or
2 something. I was just -- it was -- I was so
3 tired.
4 Q Let me bring you into -- that was
5 December '04. Let me bring you into January of
6 '05. Did you have occasion to come to this
7 courthouse on any -- during that time?
8 A I did.
9 Q Could you tell the jury about
10 that?
11 A As we were moving in November I got a
12 summons, like you did, to be a juror. And I
13 didn't deal with it at that time. And then I
14 looked at the date. It was too late; I had to
15 go. I wasn't that worried about it because I
16 had spoken so many times in public. But that
17 morning, when I got ready to leave, this pang of
18 anxiety went through me.
19 So I came into the courthouse. And
20 then, when I got to the -- to the green doors,
21 the elevator doors, my heart was just pounding,
22 pounding. And I thought, Oh, my God, I'm going
23 to have a heart attack or something. I never
24 had that before. It was pounding, pounding.
25 And so I contained it as best I could. And I
00093
1 went up to the -- I think it's the fourth floor,
2 where they have that giant room where everybody
3 meets. Not the Grand Jury. Jury pool.
4 I got in line. I got up to the -- I
5 got up to the -- the clerk, the manager. And I
6 told her that there was pending litigation and
7 so forth. And she said, "That is to be decided
8 directly by the judge."
9 And I said, "Yes."
10 So she sent me to a chair to sit down.
11 Hundreds and hundreds of people. But by that
12 time I still was living -- was living under
13 this -- in denial, thinking that somehow people
14 in Secaucus couldn't know where we were. We
15 were very protective of our address and so forth
16 in many ways.
17 So what happened was with all these
18 people around there, this replacement clerk
19 stood up in the room because they had thought
20 maybe we better pull him back for another talk.
21 And she said, "Is Timothy Carter here? Timothy
22 Carter, formerly of 988 Schopmann Drive,
23 Secaucus, New Jersey, now of" -- and she told my
24 present address.
25 And so I went and spoke to her, and she
00094
1 sent me back to sit down. I sat there, and I
2 saw a young man whom I knew just from face lived
3 in Secaucus. I can't say he was a fireman or
4 not, but I just recognized him. And he in a few
5 minutes got up and went to the phone.
6 Now, there again, that may be a
7 completely innocuous, you know, ordinary
8 circumstances. I don't know. But all I can
9 tell you is that the fear was building inside of
10 me. It's like I had been outed. And so I got
11 up and I left and I went down the hall.
12 Mercifully, there was a men's room right by the
13 door.
14 And I went into the bathroom; and I
15 started vomiting violently, like projectile
16 vomiting. And I could not stop. And so the
17 people in the bathroom, the men, said, "Sir, do
18 you need us to call EMS?"
19 And I said, "No, no, no" because I
20 didn't want to be embarrassed, you know, if I
21 could avoid it.
22 And so I just kept vomiting and
23 vomiting. And at that point the men all left;
24 and then two women who work for the court
25 administrator, I think her floor -- I think she
00095
1 is on the fourth floor. And I thought her name
2 was Mary, I don't know.
3 But anyway, they came and got me. And
4 they said, "Do you need an EMS?"
5 And at that point I had sort of like
6 thrown up so much, it was more like sort of like
7 heaving. And I said, "No, I don't think so."
8 So they said that court administrator,
9 I thought her name was, wants to see you.
10 And I went into her office. And even
11 then I had to keep getting up and running back
12 to that bathroom. And I was crying, and I -- I
13 just -- I couldn't even talk.
14 And she said, "I would release you in a
15 heartbeat. The problem is that I can't get hold
16 of the judges." It was about lunchtime then.
17 And they had left, and they were here and there.
18 And she said, "Only a judge can release you."
19 And then she said, "Do you happen to have your
20 doctor's number on you?"
21 And I said, "Yes." And I told her the
22 name of my doctor, Jack Almeleh, on Sutton Place
23 in New York City.
24 And she called him up. And he said,
25 "You send him over here to me immediately.
00096
1 Immediately. Have someone walk him down to a
2 cab and put him and send him to my office." He
3 was worried.
4 And so she still was reluctant to -- as
5 I understand, to release me without a judge.
6 She had her rules to follow. And she called him
7 back again and said, "I'm just" -- "He looks
8 like he has calmed down."
9 And my -- my doctor told him that,
10 "When it comes to the difference between a
11 patient's health, when I'm worried about them,
12 and a court, you know, rules, which I
13 understand," he said, "I will take up for you
14 thoroughly because this is a decision I need to
15 make." And these are many of such times that he
16 has --
17 Q I want to focus you on what
18 happened next. Did you leave the premises of
19 the courthouse and go to the doctor?
20 A I did, indeed.
21 Q Okay. Now, you are talking about
22 some of the things you've gone through. Did you
23 observe any changes in Peter's behavior starting
24 with the attack on your house and through
25 these -- these many months?
00097
1 A Well, I don't know if I have a good
2 perspective on it; but I think Peter's behavior
3 has been a lot more extreme than mine has. And
4 he -- when he --
5 Q Have you seen any changes in the
6 way he -- any things --
7 A Yes.
8 Q -- his emotional condition?
9 A The first thing that happened is this.
10 When Peter had his open heart surgery, the
11 doctors said, "You absolutely can never
12 smoke" --
13 MR. PARIS: Objection.
14 A -- "again."
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
16 Q Yes, okay. The judge has
17 sustained that objection.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: I sustained that
19 because you can't talk about what someone else
20 said. Just don't say the doctor said. Okay?
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. I got you.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
23 BY MR. MULLIN:
24 A Peter quit --
25 Q Hold on one second.
00098
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Hold on. Mr.
2 Mullin will ask you the questions carefully.
3 Q Let me try to -- let me focus you
4 and take the objection into account. Did you
5 see a change in Peter's behavior immediately
6 after the attack; yes or no?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. And what was the change in
9 behavior you were just attempting to describe?
10 A He came back on the morning of April 25,
11 2004. And I said, "Peter, you've been smoking."
12 And he said, "I'll only have one or
13 two."
14 Q How long had he been not smoking
15 before this incident?
16 A Four years.
17 Q And has he -- and has that
18 continued since that day?
19 A Every day.
20 Q Okay. Did you notice -- I know
21 you are not a psychologist. Did you have any
22 observations to share with the jury about how
23 Peter's behavior changed in terms of his --
24 anything that might reflect his emotional
25 condition following the attack?
00099
1 A Almost immediately Peter started --
2 Peter, who had just gotten a brand new laptop
3 computer, started making movies of fire. And I
4 had no idea the extreme to which it had gone on.
5 And he started making movies of fire, and he was
6 spending more and more time doing it on his
7 laptop. Very bizarre for him.
8 He quit reading. He became even more
9 detached from home, family, besides me.
10 And then, on three separate occasions I
11 had calls from Dowden.
12 Q His employer?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You won't be able to say what they
15 said to you because that will be objectionable,
16 hearsay; but did they cause you concern, those
17 calls?
18 A Yes, I received calls that caused me
19 concern that possibly Peter, who is a very
20 dignified person and very, very in control, by
21 the book, that he was crying during meetings of
22 the top executives, of which he was -- he had a
23 chair, he could be present.
24 Q Over the -- the months and years
25 since then up to the present have you seen any
00100
1 change in Peter's participation in daily
2 activities, in life?
3 A Peter is all but an invalid. Peter does
4 not go anywhere or do anything. And I'm very
5 much an enabler. Peter doesn't eat anything
6 unless I go and get the food. Peter doesn't --
7 Peter doesn't go out at all. And he can go for
8 a week without going out. Usually the only
9 thing that calls him out is to go to his doctor.
10 Peter doesn't dress. He has let -- he doesn't
11 shave. He doesn't -- he -- he sleeps. Peter
12 has a sleep diary he has to keep for his doctor,
13 and he sleeps -- it's nothing for him to sleep
14 48 hours a day and -- 48-hour periods, longer
15 than that. And most poignantly, this year,
16 facing trial, scared about trial --
17 Q I don't want to know -- for legal
18 reasons we are not going to have any testimony
19 about being afraid of trial, okay. I just
20 wanted to focus on --
21 A I'm just trying to say that he -- just to
22 let you know how far he had come from the days
23 in which we used to have the biggest holidays.
24 On Thanksgiving there was no mention of
25 Thanksgiving. On Christmas Day there was no
00101
1 mention of Christmas Day. There was no mention
2 of New Year's Eve, which is a big event with gay
3 people. There was no mention of Valentine's
4 Day. There was no mention of 22 years we have
5 lived together on our selected anniversary. And
6 think, 22 years without any support. And even
7 on my birthday, it was never acknowledged.
8 Q I'm going to -- I'm going to
9 finally draw your attention to February 2005.
10 And actually, I'm going to start with -- because
11 the Court has made certain rulings on this, I'm
12 going to start with approximately January 26th,
13 2005. While you were outside your apartment in
14 Jersey City did you observe anything?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Tell us what you saw. Basically,
17 what were you doing outside?
18 A I was outside with my -- with our two
19 dogs. Peter's dog, Sergai, the Vizsla. And my
20 dog is gone now, Elli. He was a Rhodesian
21 Ridgeback, 136 pounds.
22 And I'm out walking with them, and I
23 saw a green truck come up the -- the West Side
24 Avenue. And as soon as I saw that truck,
25 truthfully, I knew in my heart it was a Secaucus
00102
1 truck because they have a particular green.
2 It's more of a Kelly green, has more yellow in
3 it.
4 Q This is in Jersey City, near your
5 Jersey City apartment, right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Continue.
8 A I was in Lincoln Park, at the Lincoln
9 Park, if you know where the swing sets are,
10 yeah. And so I knew -- I knew it was. And the
11 question could be asked, well, plenty of park
12 trucks are green. And I knew that. And that's
13 what I was thinking, No, this isn't happening.
14 I was being circumspect. And -- but I knew
15 somehow -- I just knew that green.
16 And so there is a stoplight there.
17 Well, I happened to have on, of all things, my
18 leather jacket; and it's bright purple. And
19 anyone -- I used to wear it all the time. With
20 this giant dog, 136 pounds, and this other dog,
21 anybody could have recognized me. So I hung
22 back a little bit in the park until the -- the
23 truck turned up Harrison Avenue. And I followed
24 far behind it because I told you I'm scared of
25 these people.
00103
1 And I still didn't know for certain
2 that it was them. The truck was very muddy, for
3 one thing. And it had -- which theirs usually
4 aren't. And it had flaps on it that said,
5 "Meadowlands."
6 But anyway, I followed with the dogs.
7 And then I just started like sneaking behind the
8 cars, SUVs and everything parked on the side
9 until I could get near enough to it. It was a
10 very, very cold day in January 2005. And one of
11 them had on a -- two white gentlemen. One of
12 them had on like a black ski stocking cap,
13 pulled way down. It's cold. And the other one
14 had on one of those ski mask things that only
15 show the eyes and the -- you know. But I'm not
16 surprised.
17 Q Only showed the eyes and the what?
18 A The mouth. And I'm not surprised because
19 they were picking up garbage, it's very cold,
20 you know. So -- but he -- the door opened. And
21 I stood there, and I have never been so amazed
22 in my life. I was like in shock because I'm not
23 trying to read this from a distance, I'm not
24 trying to -- I'm not uncertain in any way. Flat
25 out it had the seal of Secaucus; and going all
00104
1 the way around that door, "Secaucus Department
2 of Public Works."
3 And I thought, My God, can you believe
4 it? It had stopped right in front of the
5 entrance to our apartment. I don't know why it
6 shouldn't -- should be surprised. And the
7 one -- the passenger guy with the stocking or
8 mask got out, and he went into the building. At
9 that time the buzzer had not been installed.
10 And he went into the vestibule. And I just
11 stood there, crouching behind a car with these
12 two dogs.
13 And people said, "Well, why don't you
14 get a license plate?" But I thought it was so
15 obvious. And the other thing is I was thinking
16 like a victim, you know, I didn't want to be
17 seen. I didn't want to confirm. Maybe he was
18 just fishing. Maybe he was just -- found a
19 bunch of Tim Carters. I didn't want to confirm
20 his suspicions, but he had our address.
21 Q Okay. Now, the jury has seen
22 Chuck Snyder, Sr. come into court and testify.
23 This truck you saw, was that a Department of
24 Public Works Secaucus truck?
25 A Yes, sir.
00105
1 Q Where does and where did -- Chuck
2 Snyder, Sr., where was he a foreman?
3 A "Foreman" is not the right word. He was
4 associate -- associate director.
5 Q Of what?
6 A The Department of Public Works.
7 Q Of what Town?
8 A Secaucus, New Jersey.
9 Q I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. All
11 right, Ladies and Gentlemen. We will take a
12 break. We will ask you if you can please be
13 back at 11:30. Thank you.
14 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
15 (Whereupon, a brief recess is
16 taken.)
17 COURT CLERK: On the record.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
19 COURT CLERK: On the record.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris, why
21 don't you --
22 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
23 approaching.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: -- pick an idea
25 when you want to take a break in your
00106
1 cross-examination because, rather than interrupt
2 you, I think everybody will be guided by that.
3 MR. PARIS: Thank you very much.
4 I appreciate that.
5 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
6 into the courtroom.)
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, Ladies
8 and Gentlemen.
9 We are back on the record. I
10 will note that all the jurors have returned to
11 the jury box. They look like -- and I don't say
12 this facetiously -- they'd like to have their
13 coats on. You are free to go get your coats.
14 If anybody wants to get a coat or jacket, you
15 are free to do that.
16 I will just note the draperies,
17 which are very long and heavy and velvet, are
18 moving because of the wind coming in around the
19 air conditioner.
20 So is there anyone on the jury
21 now who wants to go get a jacket or whatever
22 before we begin? If not, please know you're
23 free to, you know, bring anything like that into
24 the jury box.
25 Thank you. I apologize for
00107
1 delaying you.
2 We will now move to the
3 cross-examination of this witness by the
4 defense.
5 MR. PARIS: Thank you very much,
6 Your Honor.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris.
8 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. PARIS:
9 Q Good morning, Mr. Carter.
10 A Good morning, sir.
11 Q I just want to ask you some
12 questions about what you ended up with in terms
13 of the direct testimony, and that was the Jersey
14 City situation. When you saw this DPW truck,
15 were you walking two dogs at the time or one
16 dog?
17 A Two dogs.
18 Q One of them was that 136-pound
19 Brazer -- what is it called? I'm sorry.
20 A Rhodesian Ridgeback.
21 Q Ridgeback, okay. And you saw the
22 truck moving. And as the truck is moving, you
23 were crouching and like sneaking behind cars, so
24 that you wouldn't be seen; and at the same time
25 you have these two dogs, correct?
00108
1 A That is correct.
2 Q Okay. And you're crouching behind
3 a car with the dog, and that's when you saw the
4 DPW truck; is that correct?
5 A No, it's the exact opposite. What
6 happened is that I kept hoping that it was just
7 a different -- come on, there are plenty of
8 green trucks. And I walked further behind the
9 dogs at heel; however, I wasn't crouching. When
10 the truck door opened and I saw the seal of
11 Secaucus and, more importantly, the lettering,
12 "Secaucus Department of Public Works" --
13 Q I'm just -- Mr. Carter, I'm just
14 trying to understand where you were standing and
15 what the dogs were doing. I thought you had
16 indicated earlier to us that you were crouching
17 behind cars. Is that incorrect?
18 A That is not incorrect.
19 Q Okay.
20 A It's just that, you know, things happen
21 in sequence. And I said that they walked up to
22 the middle of the street, sir; and I said that
23 the door opened. I followed at a distance. At
24 that point I never said I was crouching. And I
25 can make that very clear. And I'm sorry, if I
00109
1 didn't the first time. I walked at a distance
2 behind them, still hoping to be paranoid. I saw
3 the door open, and it clearly said -- there is
4 no question about it.
5 Q When you were -- when you were
6 trailing behind the truck --
7 A Trailing behind the truck?
8 Q Mr. Carter, were you trailing
9 behind the truck?
10 A No, trailing would indicate that the
11 truck was moving, I assume, and that I was
12 trailing behind it. At the point I saw the door
13 open -- and I have to be absolutely vehement
14 about this -- there is no question, the Secaucus
15 Department of Public Works insignia and
16 lettering going around the side, I was not
17 trailing anyone because the truck had pulled
18 over, as I testified, on the right side of
19 Harrison and in a spot. And so the truck was
20 standing still when I saw --
21 Q Mr. Carter, here is my question.
22 If you can just answer my question, please.
23 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
24 Honor. He did answer the question.
25 A I did answer the question.
00110
1 MR. MULLIN: Can we not have
2 speeches, just questions and answers, Your
3 Honor?
4 JUDGE CURRAN: No speeches on
5 either side.
6 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: If you would please
8 rephrase or repeat your question.
9 MR. PARIS: Fine.
10 BY MR. PARIS:
11 Q Mr. Carter, did you indicate in
12 your testimony that you were following the truck
13 as it was moving?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. Okay. And then the truck
16 came to a stop, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you were behind the truck,
19 correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. Fine. And then the doors
22 opened up and someone got out and went towards
23 your -- your building, correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Carter, how -- how
00111
1 many units are there within your building there?
2 You said it was a vestibule. Is it a vestibule
3 just for your -- is this a condominium unit?
4 A It is.
5 Q Okay. So when you walk into the
6 vestibule, how many doors are there that enter
7 into other condominium units?
8 A I believe that there are seven.
9 Q Okay. And are those -- are you on
10 ground level?
11 A No.
12 Q Okay. What level --
13 A Fourth floor.
14 Q -- are you? Fourth floor? Okay.
15 And how many units are on -- is each unit at a
16 separate landing? For example, are there other
17 units on the fourth floor, as well?
18 A No, the units on the fourth floor --
19 Q In other words, you indicated your
20 unit is on the fourth floor. How many other
21 units are on the fourth floor?
22 A I think there is seven too.
23 Q Pardon me?
24 A I think there is seven too.
25 Q So are you the top -- is fourth
00112
1 floor the top floor?
2 A No.
3 Q What's the top --
4 A The top floor is the fifth floor.
5 Q Okay. Are there seven units on
6 each of the five floors in the building?
7 A That I cannot tell you. And the problem
8 is that some of the units have been made into
9 double apartments.
10 Q Okay. That's fine.
11 Now, let's go back to Secaucus.
12 Mr. Carter, prior to April 2004, prior to
13 April 25th, 2004 no firefighter had ever
14 threatened you; isn't that true?
15 A You know, I'm not sure about that.
16 Q Okay.
17 A Because there is a caveat because I was
18 going through the forum last night and I found
19 threats against Peter and I. So I don't know.
20 Q Let's talk about that a little
21 bit, okay, Mr. Carter.
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q You indicated that you went on the
24 forum last night, correct?
25 A That's correct.
00113
1 Q Okay. And is that a --
2 essentially, an internet web site type thing?
3 A It's not exactly. It's a -- it's --
4 yeah.
5 Q NJ.com?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q And then there is -- there is a
8 breakdown by county?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And within the county a breakdown
11 by towns, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And last night, in anticipation of
14 coming to court today, you decided to go on the
15 NJ.com web site to look up Secaucus, correct?
16 A No, actually, in anticipation of having
17 to leave our home at a time when the firemen who
18 attacked us and their friends will know we are
19 away from home and know that we have a dog who
20 is at home alone, we have had to make
21 adjustments to the house so that they can't slip
22 a poisoned T-bone or something under the door.
23 We have had to put up signs. We have had to ask
24 for extra supervision.
25 And that -- the reason you could
00114
1 understand, were it your family, I went on there
2 was to see what people were saying about us.
3 And there were dozens upon dozens of comments.
4 Q Mr. Carter, you didn't just go on
5 the current comments, then; you went onto that
6 web site and then you went back into the history
7 to see what comments were made other than recent
8 comments, correct?
9 A No, sir. You misunderstood me. I
10 said --
11 Q If I'm wrong, just say, "No,"
12 Mr. Carter; and I will give you another
13 question.
14 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor,
15 objection. The witness should be allowed to
16 answer the question.
17 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, can we be
18 heard at sidebar?
19 JUDGE CURRAN: If the question
20 isn't a yes or no question, there would be an
21 instruction. There was nothing phrased that way
22 so far. If you want that instruction, we will
23 do that.
24 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I will go
25 with the sidebar also.
00115
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
2 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
3 discussion is held.)
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris.
5 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
6 BY MR. PARIS:
7 Q Mr. Carter.
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Isn't it true that prior to April
10 25th, 2004 no firefighter had ever threatened
11 you?
12 A I do not know that.
13 Q Pardon me?
14 A I do not know the answer to that.
15 Q Okay.
16 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, I would
17 ask that the jury be instructed with regard to
18 depositions.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Surely. Ladies and
20 Gentlemen, the attorney for the defense is now
21 going to use a deposition in his questioning.
22 Depositions are basically questions and answers.
23 We lawyers can't call them that, so we call them
24 "depositions." They are usually conducted in
25 the office of one of the attorneys; and they're
00116
1 part of the overall, what we call, "discovery,"
2 preparation for a trial.
3 The key element is that a witness
4 has testifies at a deposition under oath with
5 the same under oath effect and requirements as
6 if the witness was in court and under oath in
7 court.
8 Okay. Thank you.
9 Anything further, Mr. Paris?
10 MR. PARIS: No, I would just like
11 to give Your Honor a copy of the transcripts.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
13 MR. PARIS: I have a copy for the
14 witness, as well. Now, Your Honor?
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Surely. Thank you
16 very much. Thank you.
17 BY MR. PARIS:
18 Q Mr. Carter, do you recall having
19 your deposition taken on three occasions in this
20 matter?
21 A I do, sir.
22 Q Okay. And you recall that you
23 received instructions prior to your taking --
24 giving testimony?
25 A I do, sir.
00117
1 Q Do you remember you were placed
2 under oath at the time that your deposition was
3 taken?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And do you remember being told
6 that the testimony you gave at the deposition
7 could be read to the jury at the time of the
8 trial of this matter?
9 A I do, sir.
10 Q You were also told, if you didn't
11 understand a question, you shouldn't answer it;
12 isn't that true?
13 A That is true.
14 Q And that if you did answer a
15 question, everyone would assume that you have
16 understood the question, correct?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q Okay. Mr. Carter, can you turn to
19 page 70 of your deposition?
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Which deposition?
21 MR. MULLIN: Which volume?
22 MR. PARIS: They're actually
23 numbered consecutively, so page 70 would be from
24 the first volume.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Yeah, but, see, you
00118
1 would know that, Mr. Paris; I wouldn't know it.
2 MR. PARIS: I'm sorry.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: No, no. What line?
4 MR. PARIS: Line 25.
5 BY MR. PARIS:
6 A I don't see mine at all. Page 70?
7 Q Yes, line 25.
8 A I don't know. I know that I was told to
9 answer to the best of my ability at that point.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, there is no
11 question.
12 MR. MULLIN: No question. Wait
13 until he asks a question.
14 BY MR. PARIS:
15 Q Let me see if I can help you,
16 Mr. Carter.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Should be in the
18 one that says, "July 19th" on the front.
19 A Okay.
20 Q Okay. At the bottom of page 70,
21 line 25, Mr. Carter, if you could just -- I'm
22 going to read the question; and all that I want
23 you to do is please read the answer that you
24 gave to the question when you were deposed on
25 July 19th, 2006. Okay?
00119
1 A Okay.
2 Q Bottom of page 70. Question: Up
3 until that time or at any time prior to
4 April 2004 had any of the firefighters
5 threatened you or your dog?
6 And your answer was?
7 A No.
8 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Carter, before
9 April 25th of 2004 you had two verbal
10 interactions with people at the firehouse,
11 correct? Do you recall those two verbal
12 interactions?
13 A I don't know what you are referring to.
14 Q Okay. Before April 25th of 2004
15 you essentially spoke to two people that were
16 firemen, all right. One was Chuck Snyder, Sr.;
17 and that was the discussion that you had
18 regarding the ice cream and the Christmas tree
19 boughs, correct?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q You have to answer verbally.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. And that was the first
24 conversation that you had with anyone from the
25 firehouse, correct?
00120
1 A I don't know that for certain.
2 Q Well, again, at the time -- could
3 you take a look at your deposition, page 89,
4 line 18. And if you take a look at line 18, you
5 were asked the question: Prior to April 2004 --
6 do you have that line?
7 A One moment, please.
8 Q Yeah, I'm sorry. Let me go back a
9 little bit. You know what, Mr. Carter, let
10 me -- let me -- let's try to break it down.
11 Mr. Carter, let's do it this way. The first
12 conversation that you recall -- do you recall --
13 let's put it this way. Do you recall any
14 conversations with anyone from the firehouse
15 before Christmas of 2003 where the firemen were
16 selling Christmas trees and wreaths and other
17 things for the holiday outside the firehouse?
18 A The only -- the only conversation I can
19 recall is that I had come over earlier and told
20 them that they were welcome to use our deck or
21 our walls to hang wreathing on. And when I said
22 I don't know if it's the first conversation I
23 had with them, I meant I don't know if at some
24 point prior to that -- let's put it this way.
25 If I had a conversation, it would be something
00121
1 forgettable.
2 Q It was nothing that sticks out in
3 your mind?
4 A Right.
5 Q Okay. So you may have indicated
6 to the firemen that they could hang wreaths on
7 the fence --
8 A Right.
9 Q -- between your house and the
10 parking lot?
11 A Uh-huh.
12 Q Correct?
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q You have to answer verbally. The
15 court reporter needs to --
16 A Yes, yes.
17 Q -- make a record.
18 A I'm sorry.
19 Q Thank you. I know it's difficult
20 sometimes.
21 A Cognizant about --
22 Q And the next memorable and the
23 only memorable conversation you have thereafter
24 was the conversation with Chuck Snyder, Sr.,
25 where you indicated that you were going to buy
00122
1 some ice cream for the firemen --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- and you asked him if he -- you
4 could have the bottom branches that they were
5 cutting off of the Christmas trees they were
6 selling?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Okay. And you described
9 Mr. Snyder, Sr. at that time as gracious; and he
10 said of course you could take the branches,
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. Now, in addition to selling
14 Christmas trees, they're also selling wreathes
15 and other items; and that was all set up in the
16 parking lot, correct?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Okay. Now, the second
19 conversation that you had -- the second
20 conversation that you had was a conversation
21 that you indicated you had with Chuck Snyder,
22 Jr.?
23 A That's right.
24 Q Okay. And that conversation took
25 place in the Fire Department parking lot,
00123
1 correct?
2 A That's right.
3 Q And that was later the same --
4 same day or into the early morning hours,
5 sometime around 1:00 in the morning the
6 following morning, correct?
7 A In general, yeah, I guess.
8 Q Okay. And that's when Mr. Snyder,
9 Sr. -- Junior came and brought his car around,
10 correct?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q Okay. Now, at that time it was
13 1:00 in the morning, right?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q And you were barefoot, correct?
16 Mr. Carter?
17 A Yes, I was decorating.
18 Q I don't know if that's distracting
19 to you; but we are not going to use the
20 deposition, at least at this moment. Okay?
21 A Okay.
22 Q Okay. And you went over your
23 fence, you jumped over your -- that rail fence,
24 correct?
25 A I don't know if I jumped over it. You
00124
1 just step --
2 Q You climbed over it? You stepped
3 over it, right?
4 A Right.
5 Q Okay. And you went into the
6 parking lot where they were selling -- the
7 Christmas trees were still there, the wreaths,
8 the grave covers, et cetera? They were all
9 there, right? Yes?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Okay. And you were taking boughs
12 out of that parking lot area in the back where
13 they had cut them? Actually, I think you had
14 said they were up front in the parking lot,
15 right, towards the front of the lot, rather than
16 in the back of the lot?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q Closer to the street, correct?
19 A Close -- closer to our yard.
20 Q Yeah, and closer to the street,
21 closer to Paterson Plank Road?
22 A No, closer to Schopmann Drive.
23 Q Okay. But I'm saying they were
24 towards the front of the lot, rather than all
25 the way in the back where your --
00125
1 A No, they cut them all the way in the
2 back.
3 Q So they were all the way in the
4 back?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q So you were going into the back of
7 the lot and carrying out the branches, right?
8 A Uh-huh.
9 Q And that conversation is where
10 Snyder, Jr. asked -- asked you what were you
11 doing taking these branches, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q That was that conversation,
14 correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. Now, other than those two
17 conversations you had no contact or
18 conversations with any of the firefighters from
19 the North End Firehouse thereafter until the
20 incident and until the time you spoke to Snyder,
21 Sr. with regard to the condoms, correct?
22 A No, that would not be correct.
23 Q It would not be correct. Okay.
24 Now, if you could please take a look at page 89
25 of your deposition, please. Okay? Oh, I'm
00126
1 sorry.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Can you take a look at line --
4 line 4. All right. Okay. I'm going to read
5 the question. Can you read the answer? Okay.
6 Starting at line 4 --
7 A Okay.
8 Q -- on page 89.
9 A Uh-huh.
10 Q Okay. "And then it was Chucky
11 Snyder, Jr. that made the U-turn and asked you
12 what you -- what you doing -- what were you
13 doing?"
14 And your answer? You see on line 7 was
15 your answer?
16 A Is this 89?
17 Q Page 89. Let me see if I can help
18 you, Mr. Carter. Let me just take a look, get
19 you to the page. Here we go. Okay. Page 89.
20 Okay. At line 4 you were asked the question,
21 "Okay. And then it was Chucky Snyder, Jr. that
22 made the U-turn and asked you what you -- what
23 were you doing?" You see that question?
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q And your answer --
00127
1 A I do.
2 Q -- was?
3 A My answer was --
4 Q You just have to read your answer.
5 A "Ask you what you were doing?"
6 Answer, "Yes."
7 Q Okay. And then the attorney said,
8 "Okay"; and you continued with your answer.
9 What did you say?
10 A "As though I were stealing them. And
11 then he said -- this is what I found offensive.
12 He said, 'You don't even live in this Town. You
13 just rent this place.' I stand quoted on that."
14 Q Continue with your answer. Do you
15 see what it says there?
16 A Just keep going?
17 Q Yes.
18 A "I never forgot, and I told Patrick Hjelm
19 what he said."
20 Q And then, continuing? I spelled
21 out Patrick Hjelm; I spelled the last name. And
22 then you continued.
23 A "Yes, he's the next door neighbor."
24 Q And then you were asked question,
25 "Prior to April 2004 were there any other
00128
1 incidents when you had any contact or
2 conversation with any of the firefighters from
3 the North End Firehouse?" And your answer was?
4 A "No, I passed them."
5 Q Keep going. Just continue to read
6 your answer.
7 A "I would not. They were standoffish.
8 They would stand outside the front doors
9 drinking their beer or in the parking lot
10 drinking their beer."
11 Q Okay. Now, prior to April 25th of
12 2004 no one from the firehouse had ever made a
13 comment to you that you believed to be
14 homophobic or antigay; isn't that true?
15 A Prior to when?
16 Q Prior to April 25th, 2004.
17 A Verbally?
18 Q Mr. Carter, let me --
19 A I would say no.
20 Q I am going to ask you the question
21 again.
22 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, he was
23 answering the question. He said, "Verbally, I
24 want to say no." I don't think he should be
25 interrupted when he is answering.
00129
1 JUDGE CURRAN: In fairness, I
2 think the interruption was almost simultaneous.
3 MR. MULLIN: All right.
4 BY MR. PARIS:
5 Q You have asked me a question
6 because you didn't understand my question; is
7 that it, Mr. Carter?
8 JUDGE CURRAN: No, he answered the
9 question. He said, "Verbally" question mark,
10 answer.
11 Q Yes, verbally did any firefighter
12 make any comment to you that you believed to be
13 homophobic or antigay prior to April 25th, 2004?
14 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I want to
15 object to form. Can I be heard sidebar, if
16 you'd prefer it that way.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
18 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
19 discussion is held.)
20 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I'm not
21 sure -- I'm not sure where counsel is going with
22 this, but it sounds like maybe -- and maybe he
23 will say this isn't the case -- he did some sort
24 of digging into some sort of communication my
25 client did or didn't have last night on this web
00130
1 site.
2 And if he has something like
3 that, his obligation is to amend his Answers to
4 Interrogatories and documents because I asked
5 for all party admissions. So we don't do trial
6 by ambush in the State of New Jersey. So if he
7 has something, that he wants to surprise or
8 ambush me or my client with, this is the time he
9 should tell us about it.
10 If he is just asking, exploring
11 whether he went on, what he did, that's another
12 story. Seems a little far afield; but I need to
13 know if he has a party admission, that he has a
14 statement of some sort my client made last night
15 on-line that he hasn't revealed to me in
16 violation of discovery rules.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, in violation
18 of discovery rules, he couldn't reveal something
19 that was said last night.
20 MR. MULLIN: You have an
21 obligation to supplement.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Supplement, yes.
23 MR. MULLIN: That is under the
24 rules; you have an obligation to supplement.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris, why are
00131
1 you asking these questions about the forum? Is
2 it because the witness mentioned the forum.
3 MR. PARIS: Yes.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: That's how it
5 started.
6 MR. PARIS: Yes.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: You didn't ask him.
8 MR. PARIS: I asked him a very
9 simple, straightforward question. And it was
10 either a yes or a no, I thought, okay. And he
11 has his own speeches to give. So I would ask,
12 if I ask a yes or no question, the witness be
13 directed to provide a yes or no answer, if he is
14 able.
15 MR. MULLIN: If he is able. I
16 have no objection to that.
17 MR. PARIS: If he is not --
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Are you going to
19 make that request now on the record?
20 MR. PARIS: I would like to, yes.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: See, it has to be
22 on the record, so he could hear it. What I
23 normally do in a case like this is say to a
24 witness, "If there is a request like that, then
25 you must answer, 'Yes,' 'No'; or you can say, 'I
00132
1 don't know.'"
2 MR. PARIS: Of course, thank you.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: So the witness
4 understands. That's what I normally instruct
5 the witness.
6 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I want to
7 offer a slight fine-tuning. I don't want it to
8 appear to the jury right now my client has done
9 anything wrong. What I would prefer, Your
10 Honor, is let him ask the next question.
11 Mr. Paris has the next question. If he says
12 it's a -- a yes or no question, then Your Honor
13 can give that instruction. But I would not -- I
14 would like -- I don't believe he was asked a
15 simple yes or no question --
16 JUDGE CURRAN: He wasn't.
17 MR. MULLIN: -- just now, so I
18 don't want the jury --
19 JUDGE CURRAN: You want the
20 question first? That's very fair.
21 MR. PARIS: That's fine.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Anything else?
23 MR. PARIS: Not right now.
24 MR. MULLIN: That's all.
25 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
00133
1 concluded.)
2 BY MR. PARIS:
3 Q Mr. Carter, okay, between
4 October 1st, 2001 and April 23rd, 2004 did
5 anyone from the firehouse ever make a comment to
6 you that you believed to be homophobic or
7 antigay?
8 A I believe that the incidents in which --
9 the incident in which Chucky Snyder, Jr. made
10 the comment, "You are" -- "You don't live here;
11 you just rent here," I believe that that was
12 homophobic.
13 Q Pardon me?
14 A I believe that was homophobic.
15 Q You thought that was homophobic?
16 A And Peter and I had also heard two
17 weekends after we got there someone riding by
18 yelling, "Faggot, faggot, faggot."
19 Q Two weeks after you moved in?
20 A Yeah. And we went to Patrick, who told
21 us it was nothing to worry about.
22 Q Mr. Carter, can you take a look at
23 page 248 of your deposition. It was taken on
24 December 11th, 2006 during the course of this
25 litigation.
00134
1 A 248?
2 Q Page 248. That would be in the
3 Volume II.
4 A Okay. All right.
5 Q Now, Mr. Carter, I'm going to read
6 you a question. And if you could provide your
7 answer. Okay. Question: Between
8 October 1st --
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Line?
10 Q -- 2001 --
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Line?
12 Q -- and April --
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Line?
14 MR. PARIS: I'm sorry, line 18.
15 BY MR. PARIS:
16 Q "Between October 1st, 2001 and
17 April 23rd, 2004 did anyone from the firehouse
18 ever make a comment to you that you believed to
19 be homophobic or antigay?"
20 And can you read your answer, please?
21 A "No, sir."
22 MR. MULLIN: That's not the whole
23 answer, Your Honor. Can we have him read the
24 entire answer?
25 Q You can continue with the rest.
00135
1 MR. MULLIN: After, "No, sir."
2 Q After, "No, sir."
3 A "The first two years there was a
4 different captain, who was Chucky Snyder, Sr.;
5 and they were very standoffish, okay."
6 MR. MULLIN: Keep going.
7 Q You can continue reading the
8 remainder of your answer, Mr. Carter.
9 A "But as I told you, in the spring of the
10 year before this happened, 2003, there had been
11 a change to a hose company because they had
12 installed emergency vehicles downstairs and hose
13 people literally do that. They hold the hose.
14 You have to be young and strong. And they're a
15 hose company. So there were 15 of them."
16 "At that point they became very, very
17 surly, very menacing looking. And you want
18 demeanor words. And sort of like I felt I was
19 living next door to a kennel of Rottweilers and
20 obviously hostile. And I am a very gregarious
21 person, unfortunately, by nature. And I recall
22 having walked past one of them."
23 "They did con" -- "consecutively win
24 the award for having the cleanest fire engine.
25 They were very good at cleaning the fire engine.
00136
1 I went by. And it had been very, very thick
2 glass, and the fire engine was brand new. I had
3 never seen one before. A civilian of the Town,
4 I said to the guy, 'Is' -- I said, 'The window
5 is so thick, you know, like you can roll it up
6 or' -- I have some question, just trying to make
7 conversation. And he was very, very -- some big
8 growling dog, bush or something in his attitude
9 toward me. After that I left them completely
10 alone."
11 "They started working on their cars,
12 putting them up on cement blocks, changing their
13 oil. You know, it got a little low rent, even
14 for that neighborhood, which is otherwise quite
15 an attractive place."
16 Q Okay. And that was your complete
17 answer to the question -- and that was your
18 complete answer to the question, "Between
19 October 1, 2001 and April 23, 2004 did anyone
20 from the firehouse ever make a comment to you
21 that you believed to be homophobic or antigay,"
22 correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Now, Mr. Carter, you called the
25 municipal building regarding the condom -- the
00137
1 condoms, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Okay. And before calling the
4 municipal building at that time you had never
5 contacted anyone in Town to complain that you
6 were the subject of any type of harassment on
7 account of your sexuality; isn't that true?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And before making that call to the
10 municipal building you had never made any call
11 to anyone at the Town indicating that you were
12 the subject of any type of intimidation on
13 account of your sexuality; isn't that true?
14 A Say it again.
15 Q Isn't it true that before you
16 called the municipal building regarding the
17 condoms you had never called the Town or anyone
18 in the Town to complain that you were the
19 subject of any type of intimidation on account
20 of your sexuality?
21 A When you say, "in the Town," who do you
22 mean?
23 Q I'm talking about you called the
24 municipal building about the condoms, correct?
25 A Uh-huh.
00138
1 Q You have to answer verbally, I'm
2 sorry, Mr. --
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. Had you ever called the
5 municipal building --
6 A Pardon me.
7 Q -- and indicated to anyone at the
8 municipal building that you were being subjected
9 to intimidation on account of your sexuality?
10 A Well, there were conversations along that
11 line.
12 Q You're talking about calls that
13 you made to the municipal building?
14 A Well, speaking with officials, it doesn't
15 matter why you called them, does it?
16 Q No, but here is the question,
17 Mr. Carter. Before you called about the condoms
18 you had never called anyone at the municipality
19 and complained that you were being subjected to
20 intimidation on account of your sexual
21 orientation?
22 A I had a general conversation with an
23 official. He is the chaplain.
24 Q The what?
25 A The chaplain to the Fire Department. And
00139
1 we went to great lengths speaking about antigay
2 bias.
3 Q Okay. You were talking about that
4 generally, weren't you? You were talking to him
5 about that generally, correct?
6 A Generally as in terms of Secaucus, yes.
7 Q Well, before you called about the
8 condoms you had not filed any complaints,
9 contacted the Police Department, contacted the
10 Fire Department, before the call about the
11 condoms, saying that, "I am being subjected to
12 intimidation on account of my sexual
13 orientation"; isn't that true?
14 A I'm not sure if what you just said is
15 true.
16 Q Mr. Carter, before you called
17 about the condoms you had not complained to
18 anyone at the Town that you were being subjected
19 to any threats on account of your sexual
20 orientation; isn't that true?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, in fact, about two days
23 before the April 25th incident, on April 23rd
24 you wrote a note to Mayor Elwell and you
25 suggested that or you encouraged him to eat at
00140
1 the North End Deli, correct?
2 A That's right.
3 Q Okay. Because you liked the North
4 End Deli and you wanted to support the North End
5 Deli and you wanted the Mayor to come and eat at
6 the North End Deli, correct?
7 A Because they were kids out of high school
8 who started it.
9 MR. PARIS: Okay. Your Honor,
10 this would probably be a good breaking point.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Thank you.
12 All right, Ladies and Gentlemen.
13 We will take the lunch break now; and we will
14 ask that you return at 1:30. Again, I am going
15 to remind you please do not discuss the case
16 among yourselves. Please do not discuss it with
17 anyone else. Thank you.
18 Off the record.
19 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
20 (Whereupon, the jury is excused
21 for lunch.)
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, you may step
23 down.
24 Back on the record.
25 COURT CLERK: Yes, on the record.
00141
1 MR. MULLIN: Judge, I just want to
2 clarify. I know different judges do it
3 differently. Some judges don't want us to talk
4 to our clients while they are pending on cross;
5 some judges allow it and allow all parties to do
6 so.
7 Frankly, I just want to know
8 what -- what Your Honor's rule is. Can I talk
9 to my client now, in which case, obviously, that
10 would apply to them; they can talk to their
11 witnesses during the break, even if they are on
12 cross. Just want to know what the grounds are,
13 Your Honor.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: I usually ask the
15 other side what their preference is.
16 MR. PARIS: I would prefer not.
17 Let me just double-check.
18 If they want to talk to their
19 clients or witnesses during break, then we would
20 have no problem applying that to both.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. We will do
22 that. That will, you know, work for all
23 plaintiffs witnesses, all defense witnesses.
24 And I know all four of you are very
25 professional, and I am sure there won't be any
00142
1 problem. Thank you.
2 MR. BEVERE: Thank you, Judge.
3 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
4 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess is
5 taken.)
6 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
7 COURT CLERK: All rise.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Be seated. On the
9 record, before the jurors come out, I just
10 wanted to revisit -- I just wanted to revisit,
11 because we may get there, the issue of questions
12 from the jury.
13 We can go off the record.
14 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
16 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
17 off the record.)
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Back on the record,
19 please.
20 COURT CLERK: On the record.
21 MR. MULLIN: Judge, I think
22 yesterday -- actually, last time we were in
23 court -- what was that, Thursday?
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Thursday.
25 MR. MULLIN: -- you raised the
00143
1 issue of -- we didn't have questions after
2 Mr. Snyder, and you raised the issue of whether
3 we cared to have questions after this witness.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, I was really
5 concerned about both plaintiffs.
6 MR. MULLIN: Yeah. And I don't
7 have strong feelings one way or the other. I
8 think I leave it to Your Honor's discretion on
9 that issue.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Do you wish to be
11 heard?
12 MR. PARIS: Well, the only thing I
13 think is the plaintiffs shouldn't be dealt with
14 different than any other witness. And early on
15 there had been an indication that the jurors
16 would be allowed to ask questions. I think the
17 jury was told that when they were impaneled. So
18 I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be
19 permitted to ask questions of Mr. Carter and,
20 again, after counsel has reviewed the questions.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Thank you.
22 We will do that. Both your clients were in
23 court when I did explain it in some detail, so I
24 think they would understand the rule.
25 MR. MULLIN: Sure.
00144
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. We will
2 bring out the jury.
3 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
4 approaching.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
6 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
7 into the courtroom.)
8 JUDGE CURRAN: You have abandoned
9 one of your own, huh?
10 Thank you. We're back on the
11 record.
12 Sir, if you would be kind enough,
13 please, to take the witness box. Please be
14 seated. You may be seated.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
16 Mr. Paris.
17 MR. PARIS: Thank you, Your Honor.
18 BY MR. PARIS:
19 Q Mr. Carter, I want to speak to you
20 about the condom call that you had made. And
21 you spoke to Mr. Snyder, Sr. You recall that
22 testimony you gave, correct?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Okay. The call that you made was
25 about a week after you found the condom in the
00145
1 box, correct?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Okay. Now, during that
4 conversation or -- excuse me, during your
5 testimony you indicated that there was an
6 evening when a woman that you thought was a wife
7 or girlfriend came to the parking lot and pulled
8 a prostitute out of a car by her hair. Do you
9 recall that?
10 A I did not say she was a prostitute.
11 Q Oh, I'm sorry, okay.
12 A I said that she was a young woman in the
13 car with a fireman and that the fireman's
14 girlfriend, wife, significant other, came with
15 her sister and pulled her out of the car and
16 they got into a -- a fight, a jumble between the
17 three of them. I never said she was a
18 prostitute.
19 Q Okay. And that -- that was quite
20 an event that you witnessed, wasn't it?
21 A What do you mean by "quite an event"?
22 Q Well, do you recall describing
23 that as a good event?
24 A A good event?
25 Q Good event. Do you recall having
00146
1 testified that that was a good event?
2 A I think that in the context of the
3 deposition, when even you and others
4 participated in just a bit of light-heartedness,
5 I may have said that.
6 Q Did you say that it was an
7 interesting event?
8 A An interesting event? Do you mean do I
9 think it was an interesting event in relation to
10 the case and later events, or do you think it
11 was -- do you mean it was an interesting event
12 in terms of Secaucus the Town? Or was it
13 interesting in the relationships that were going
14 on?
15 Q Mr. Carter, you described that
16 incident as interesting, didn't you?
17 MR. MULLIN: Objection,
18 irrelevant.
19 A I don't recall.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Overruled at that
21 point.
22 A Overruled. Can I refer back to where I
23 said this?
24 Q No. Do you recall having said
25 that that was an interesting event?
00147
1 A I don't recall the interesting part.
2 Q Could you please take a look at
3 page 448 of your deposition, please.
4 A Okay.
5 Q Can you take a look at page --
6 excuse me, I'm sorry, 448, line 9. Do you have
7 that, Mr. Carter?
8 A Okay.
9 Q And do you recall the question
10 that you were asked? "Let me ask you just a
11 couple of questions about that, Mr. Carter. How
12 did you leave your phone conversation with Chuck
13 Snyder, Sr. at the time you spoke to him about
14 the condoms?" And your answer was?
15 A I said, "I can't even believe you have
16 the nerve to deny this. You have the cars. I
17 described the cars. I have the licenses, the
18 decals, the whole works, where they parked. I
19 said, 'One night one of the girlfriends or wives
20 or her sister -- and her sister came out there
21 and pulled a hooker out of this car by the
22 hair.' That was the one good event that
23 happened. That was interesting."
24 Q Can you continue with your answer,
25 please?
00148
1 A I would just say --
2 Q Excuse me.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: No, no.
4 Q Can you finish reading your
5 answer, please?
6 A Oh, I'm sorry. "And I also yelled at the
7 woman because I wasn't scared of them. I said,
8 'Will you be quiet?'"
9 Q Mr. Carter, and after speaking
10 with Mr. Snyder, Sr. you never found a condom in
11 your yard again for the rest of the time that
12 you were in Secaucus; isn't that true?
13 A No, that is not true.
14 Q You are saying that you reported
15 to the police that you found a condom after you
16 had spoken to Mr. Snyder?
17 MR. MULLIN: Objection. That's a
18 different question.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
20 BY MR. PARIS:
21 Q Mr. Carter, if you're -- if it is
22 your testimony that you found another condom
23 after speaking to Mr. Snyder, my question is:
24 Did you report that to the Secaucus Police?
25 A I don't know where your logic is going,
00149
1 but one doesn't add up to the other.
2 Q I am not asking about my logic.
3 I'm asking you if you found another condom in
4 your yard after you had spoken to Mr. Snyder, my
5 question is did you call the Secaucus Police and
6 tell them, "I found another condom"?
7 MR. MULLIN: Objection, compound
8 question.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
10 BY MR. PARIS:
11 A Actually --
12 MR. MULLIN: Wait. Don't answer.
13 Q Mr. Carter, let me break it down.
14 You indicate that after you spoke to Mr. Snyder
15 you found another condom in your yard?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And that would have had to have
18 been within approximately six-week period of
19 time from the time that you spoke to Mr. Snyder
20 until the time of the incident, correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Okay. So that would have been
23 within that six-week time frame, correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Okay. Did you report that to the
00150
1 Secaucus Police?
2 A At what point?
3 Q At any point.
4 A At any point?
5 Q Yeah, at any point.
6 A Yes.
7 Q When did you report it to the
8 Secaucus Police?
9 A I'm sure I told Dominic DeGennaro.
10 Q Mr. Carter, you've reviewed all
11 sorts of police reports in this case, haven't
12 you?
13 A I suppose.
14 Q Okay. Have you seen a police
15 report where you indicated that after speaking
16 to Mr. Snyder you still found another condom?
17 A Well, can I answer; or do I have to --
18 Q Well, that's the question; and I
19 would appreciate your answer.
20 A I'm going to say yes and no.
21 Q Yes or no?
22 A Oh, I see. The -- I found pieces of
23 the -- of the boxes after that that had fallen
24 apart.
25 Q Okay. So let's be clear, then.
00151
1 You did not find another condom in your yard
2 after your conversation with Mr. Snyder, Sr.,
3 correct?
4 A I can't say that either because the
5 condoms were coming separated from the boxes.
6 Q Okay. But you just told -- you
7 just told us that you found pieces of boxes --
8 A Right.
9 Q -- in your yard after you spoke to
10 Mr. Snyder, correct?
11 A Yeah, so.
12 Q You described to the jury very
13 vividly finding a condom on your deck, correct?
14 A That was hot.
15 Q Okay. You described that very
16 vividly, correct?
17 A Right.
18 Q Okay. So my question to you is:
19 After you spoke to Mr. Snyder you didn't find
20 another condom in your yard, did you?
21 A I do not recall.
22 Q You don't recall? Okay. Now,
23 with regard to the condom, you indicated that
24 you found a total of three condoms in your yard;
25 isn't that true?
00152
1 A I -- the condoms I found were separated
2 from the boxes.
3 Q I'm talking about condoms. You
4 indicated to the police in a statement that you
5 gave after this incident that you found three
6 condoms; isn't that true?
7 A Can you give me the reference?
8 Q You don't recall that?
9 A I want --
10 Q Just tell me you don't recall, if
11 you don't recall. We will get to that.
12 A No, I think it's fair. Can you give me
13 the reference? I have had hours and hours of
14 deposition.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, I understand
16 that. If you can just be kind enough to answer
17 the questions, and then Mr. Paris will follow
18 up. Maybe he won't follow up, but it is his
19 opportunity.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't want to say
21 anything that's not right.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Pardon me?
23 THE WITNESS: I don't want to say
24 anything that's not right.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: I understand that.
00153
1 You are also free to say you can't answer when
2 you don't remember. That's up to you.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay. Even
4 referring back to testimony?
5 MR. PARIS: Well, why don't we do
6 that?
7 JUDGE CURRAN: No, why don't we
8 start with --
9 MR. PARIS: New question.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: I apologize. The
11 witness asked me even in regard to back
12 testimony? And I am answering him by saying
13 where we're starting now, with that
14 understanding, if you can't answer, you're free
15 to say you can't answer or you don't remember --
16 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: -- or you're not
18 sure, whatever.
19 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: I never did this
21 before.
22 BY MR. PARIS:
23 Q Do you remember telling the
24 Secaucus Police after the April 25th incident
25 that you found three condoms in your yard, three
00154
1 condoms? Do you recall that?
2 A After the April 25th event?
3 Q When you gave a statement to the
4 police.
5 A Right.
6 Q Okay. After the April 25th event.
7 A Right.
8 Q Okay. You gave a statement to the
9 police on April 29th, correct?
10 A Right.
11 Q Okay. In that statement did you
12 indicate that you found condoms in your yard on
13 three occasions?
14 A I can't remember there are three or four;
15 but yes, if that's what's in the statement.
16 Q Now, with regard to you finding
17 condoms in your yard, that was not reported to
18 the Secaucus Police until after the April 25th
19 event; isn't that true?
20 A That is true.
21 Q Okay. Now, let's talk about the
22 doorbell ringing. All right. You'd indicated
23 that many months earlier -- some months earlier
24 you had the -- some doorbell-ringing incidents,
25 correct? And I think you described an incident
00155
1 where you believed that you saw Mr. Snyder, Sr.
2 running away from your house, correct?
3 A I -- I didn't believe it; I saw it.
4 Q You believe that you saw
5 Mr. Snyder, Sr.?
6 A No, I saw him.
7 Q You saw him, okay. With regard to
8 the doorbell-ringing incidents, you didn't
9 report that to the Secaucus Police until after
10 the April 25th event; isn't that correct?
11 A Yes, because I was in a very tough
12 management position, in which I was trying to
13 speak to the Fire Chief, hoping he could contain
14 the situation internally and we wouldn't lose
15 our home.
16 Q Okay. Mr. Carter, now --
17 A I was circumspect.
18 Q Mr. Carter, your first report
19 regarding the condoms was on -- excuse me, was
20 at the time that you gave your statement to the
21 police on April 29th, correct?
22 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
23 A No, that's not correct.
24 Q Pardon me?
25 MR. MULLIN: First time reporting
00156
1 it to whom? Objection, Your Honor.
2 MR. PARIS: Reporting it to the
3 Secaucus Police Department.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
5 BY MR. PARIS:
6 A No, you know, I don't agree with that
7 because -- because Chucky, Chucky Snyder, Jr.,
8 who's assistant manager at DPW, I mean, what if
9 he goes around and he finds a baby has been
10 thrown in the garbage? Wouldn't he report that
11 to the -- do you actually have to go to the
12 Police Chief and say, "Here is the baby in the
13 garbage"?
14 Q I'm trying to understand your
15 analogy. Just so I understand, Mr. Carter, is
16 what you are saying is that you finding a condom
17 on your deck is the same as someone finding a
18 baby abandoned in Secaucus?
19 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
20 Honor.
21 A No, no.
22 Q Well, tell me what -- but you're
23 analogizing if you found -- if someone found a
24 baby, correct?
25 A No.
00157
1 Q Let me ask you --
2 A What I'm trying to say is that if -- if
3 Chuck -- is that they work together as an
4 organization. And I would assume that the --
5 they are a team and that if things -- if
6 anything is found of concern that's trash, which
7 would be a used condom, that stands out that
8 could be an issue for the Town, that the DPW
9 would, indeed, report it to the proper
10 authorities. Wouldn't you think?
11 Q Mr. Carter, my question to you
12 was: You did not report the condom incident to
13 this Police Department until after the
14 April 25th event; isn't that true?
15 A No, that is not true.
16 Q Okay. Thank you.
17 A No, it's simply not true because on
18 the -- on the tape that I make to the dispatcher
19 I say, "They have been throwing dirty condoms at
20 us." And that was four days before I gave my --
21 my interview --
22 Q Okay.
23 A -- of the 29th.
24 Q I was referring to after the
25 April 25th event. So you are saying the first
00158
1 time -- again, just so we're clear, you are
2 saying the first time you reported the condoms
3 to the Secaucus Police Department is during your
4 phone call to the 911 dispatcher on the morning
5 of April 25th, correct?
6 A So far. But that's still four days ahead
7 of what you're saying --
8 Q I understand. Okay.
9 A -- to be fair.
10 Q Now --
11 A Just trying to be correct.
12 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Snyder -- excuse
13 me, Mr. Carter, you indicated that when you --
14 you had seen a car the night of the last condom
15 in -- I think you said it was either February or
16 March; but it was very cold, correct?
17 Mr. Carter, it was very cold? You have to
18 answer verbally.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: You have to --
20 A Yes, yes.
21 Q You indicated the car you saw that
22 you thought that the condom came from looked
23 like a Stingray, correct?
24 A That is correct.
25 Q Okay. And on May 1st you gave a
00159
1 license plate number to the Secaucus Police
2 Department for the car that you believed the
3 condom had come from, correct?
4 A Actually, I already had that license
5 plate number written down.
6 Q You had it written down and you
7 gave that to the Police Department for the first
8 time on May 1st and that was to Detective
9 Sergeant DeGennaro, correct?
10 A I do not recall.
11 Q Okay. Now, I just want to talk
12 briefly about the morning of April 25th. In
13 order to get -- at about ten of 1 you wanted the
14 noise in the parking lot to stop, correct?
15 A Well, the "Ooh" thing.
16 Q The noise -- well, the "Ooh"s?
17 A The "Ooh" thing.
18 Q You wanted the "Ooh"s to stop,
19 correct?
20 A I did.
21 Q And it was loud? The "Ooh"s were
22 loud, weren't they?
23 A Right.
24 Q And you were afraid that those
25 "Ooh"s were going to wake up Peter, correct?
00160
1 A That is right.
2 Q And you figured you were going to
3 wait until 1:00. You figured it's ten of 1,
4 that's enough. You wanted the "Ooh"s to stop.
5 They were loud. You were afraid they were going
6 to wake up Peter, correct?
7 A Right.
8 Q Okay. And what you did, what you
9 decided to do was to go out on your deck --
10 A Right.
11 Q -- correct? And you had to -- to
12 say hello -- I think you may have done it here
13 five times, four times, six times. You had to
14 yell, "Hello," correct?
15 A Right.
16 Q And you yelled, "hello" from
17 outside on your deck in the back --
18 A Right.
19 Q -- right? And each time you did
20 it you had to yell louder and louder and louder
21 because you had to be heard over the "Ooh"s that
22 were coming from the parking lot?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. So when you -- when you
25 finally got someone's attention, you figured you
00161
1 got their attention because then the "Ooh"s
2 stopped?
3 A Right.
4 Q Okay. And then you said, "Will
5 you please shut the hell up already?" Are those
6 the words you used?
7 A They are not.
8 Q Okay. Give me the order of the
9 words that you actually used.
10 A Here they go.
11 Q Okay.
12 A "Guys, it is 1:00 in the morning already.
13 Could you please just shut the hell up?"
14 Q Okay. And those are the words
15 that you used --
16 A As I said --
17 Q -- exactly?
18 A -- them.
19 Q You remember those words exactly?
20 A I do.
21 Q Now, the bus had come back from
22 the dinner. And at the time that the bus
23 emptied out with the people coming back from the
24 dinner, I believe you testified that Peter was
25 awake, correct?
00162
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. And then Peter went
3 upstairs to read?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And he fell asleep?
6 A You would have to ask Peter.
7 Q Well, when you saw Peter later,
8 when you went upstairs, he was -- you said he
9 was just waking up, correct?
10 A Yes, but I don't know what time he fell
11 asleep.
12 Q No, I know you don't know what
13 time he fell asleep; but it appeared to you,
14 when you got upstairs -- you said he was just
15 waking up?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Now, when you went upstairs
18 to Peter, you weren't sure whether he was awake
19 or not; or you intended to wake him up?
20 A You know, Mr. Paris, I really wasn't -- I
21 guess it was more of a decision I have to go get
22 him. I wasn't thinking.
23 Q Well, were you planning on waking
24 him up, if he was asleep?
25 A I can't even say that.
00163
1 Q And when you went upstairs, Peter,
2 you didn't know whether he was awake or asleep,
3 correct?
4 A Right.
5 Q And -- but you knew if he was
6 asleep, you were going to wake him; and if he
7 was awake, he was going to come downstairs with
8 you, correct?
9 A That's closer to the truth. I won't say
10 I was planning to wake him up.
11 Q But it was your intention to wake
12 him, if he was sleeping?
13 A It's not as if the phone rang and I had
14 to decide whether or not to wake him. It was
15 just -- I wasn't thinking that way.
16 Q Okay. Now, the noise had been
17 going on, I think you said, for about six
18 minutes or so before you woke Peter up?
19 A That's harder to say.
20 Q Okay.
21 A I'm guessing.
22 Q And when you went up to Peter at
23 that point in time, you had not decided to call
24 the police, had you?
25 A I was afraid to call them.
00164
1 Q So you had not -- it was not your
2 intention to call the police; is that true?
3 A Not at all.
4 Q Pardon me?
5 A Not at all.
6 Q You were not -- you're saying my
7 statement is not at all true, or --
8 A Yeah.
9 Q -- you did not intend to call the
10 police?
11 A Sir, it really is not at all true. It's
12 when I -- I guess I needed Peter to do it.
13 Q So until Peter was with you, you
14 had not made the decision to call the police?
15 A No.
16 Q No, I'm wrong; or am I correct?
17 A You are correct, yes, sir.
18 Q Okay. And it was only after you
19 went to get Peter that Peter made the decision
20 to call the police?
21 A I wouldn't say that's true at all. I
22 think that I went and got Peter for -- for
23 solitude between the two of us.
24 Q For moral support?
25 A Yes. And also, I wouldn't want to call
00165
1 them without his -- his having known it, you
2 know.
3 Q Okay. So that's when -- that's
4 when the decision was made to call the police;
5 is that correct, Mr. Carter?
6 A Is that correct?
7 Q Yes.
8 A I think that, oh, when -- no, when I went
9 up the stairs to get Peter, I knew the decision
10 for me had been made to call the police.
11 Q Okay. Now, on Thursday, when you
12 were describing at least one aspect of the
13 incident, you used the word "explosion" to
14 describe a sound you heard, correct? Do you
15 recall using the word "explosion"?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Do you recall ever using the word
18 "explosion" when you spoke to the Secaucus
19 Police?
20 A I did. I said -- well, I'll tell you
21 what. I said, "It was like a bomb going off."
22 Q And have you ever seen any
23 statement that you have given that indicated
24 that it was like a bomb going off?
25 A I don't know that, but I can tell you for
00166
1 certain that is what I said.
2 Q Now, Mr. Carter, who have you
3 given statements to regarding this matter, other
4 than the Secaucus Police?
5 A Really? You want from the beginning?
6 Q Well, you gave statements to a lot
7 of different people, correct?
8 A Right.
9 Q Okay. Did you use the word
10 "explosion" when you gave statements to them?
11 A I know I used the word "explosion."
12 Q When you gave statements to other
13 people?
14 A I said it was like a -- no, I didn't --
15 no, wait. Wait. Wait. You are using
16 "explosion" again. I didn't say -- I said,
17 "bomb." I said, "It was like a bomb going off."
18 Q When you were talking to other
19 people, are you sure you didn't use the word
20 "rock?" "It sounded like a rock had hit the
21 side of the house"?
22 A I said I didn't know what happened.
23 Q Okay.
24 A But I said, "It was like a bomb"; that I
25 did. So I would imagine, given my
00167
1 long-windedness, I threw in plenty of
2 adjectives.
3 Q Mr. Carter, on Thursday, when you
4 testified on direct, you had some comments about
5 the 911 dispatcher; do you recall that, that you
6 were unhappy that he didn't let you hold up the
7 phone and so that he could listen to the sound
8 from the parking lot?
9 A I did.
10 Q Okay. Did -- were you upset
11 because he wasn't as cooperative that you would
12 have liked in terms of listening on the phone to
13 what was going on in the parking lot?
14 A I was disappointed with two things. I
15 was disappointed that, if you really look at
16 that transcript, you see almost immediately he
17 is trying to rush me off.
18 And I was disappointed that he was not
19 giving me the opportunity to report.
20 And I was especially disappointed
21 because if I had been able to hold up that phone
22 and record those voices, then we could have
23 brought in Chucky Snyder, Sr. here and if we
24 could get him to speak -- I don't know how you
25 do it -- not only I could have understood it or
00168
1 you could have understood it, but the jurors
2 could set there -- sit there for themselves.
3 You wanted this based on evidence. Fine by me.
4 They could have set there and said, "Does that
5 voice match the voice I'm hearing now?" And
6 that really did upset me. And I went back over
7 to John J. Criminal Justice -- Criminal
8 College --
9 MR. PARIS: Your Honor.
10 A No.
11 MR. PARIS: Your Honor. Excuse
12 me.
13 A But I went back and they said --
14 MR. PARIS: See, this is -- now we
15 are going so far afield.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, if you would
17 just try to stick more closely to the questions
18 that Mr. Paris is asking you. If there is
19 something that you feel should be added, I
20 believe Mr. Mullin would understand that. Or
21 you are free to say that to Mr. Mullin, and then
22 Mr. Mullin can ask you to expand on your
23 answers. Okay?
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: So if you would try
00169
1 to stick just to the question Mr. Paris is
2 asking you.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
5 BY MR. PARIS:
6 Q Mr. Carter, I'm directing your
7 attention to that evening. That evening you
8 were upset with the dispatcher, right?
9 A You heard the tape. Was I upset? I
10 don't even know that.
11 Q Were you -- you can tell us if the
12 answer is no. Were you upset with the
13 dispatcher that night because he wouldn't leave
14 you -- let you stay on the phone to listen?
15 That's all I'm asking is whether or not you were
16 upset that night?
17 A I was disappointed. And I believe I was
18 courteous.
19 Q Okay. Did -- that night did you
20 think that perhaps you wanted to get off the
21 phone so that he could get the police out to you
22 to protect you?
23 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
24 A No, no, he already said --
25 MR. MULLIN: Objection. Asking
00170
1 the witness to tell what was in the dispatcher's
2 mind.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained. If you
4 would just rephrase it.
5 MR. PARIS: Sure.
6 BY MR. PARIS:
7 Q Mr. Carter, did you think that
8 night -- did you think that night that perhaps
9 the dispatcher wanted to dispatch a car to come
10 out to the scene and protect you?
11 A No, sir, because --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- if you listen to the tape, you hear
14 him say, "I have already received two calls, and
15 they're on their way."
16 Q Okay. Did you think that perhaps
17 he wanted to get you off the phone in case more
18 calls came on? Did you think about that that
19 night?
20 A No, I did not.
21 Q Okay.
22 A Because if you -- even when there is a
23 stabbing victim or something, dispatchers, by
24 their code, try to keep them on the phone to get
25 as much information as they can, let alone the
00171
1 voice of the --
2 Q Okay. Mr. Carter, at any point
3 when you made that phone call did you tell the
4 dispatcher that you had been stabbed?
5 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
6 A It was an emergency --
7 MR. MULLIN: Irrelevant.
8 A -- situation.
9 Q Okay. Mr. Carter, did you tell
10 the dispatcher to send an ambulance because you
11 needed medical attention?
12 A Well, that would give him a better reason
13 to hang up on me; but I didn't.
14 Q Okay. Now, when the first police
15 officers arrived -- I just want to understand --
16 it's your testimony that there was a knock on
17 the door and that's why you went and opened the
18 door, correct?
19 A Peter answered the door.
20 Q Okay. And you heard a knock on
21 the door, and that's why Peter then -- then
22 Peter answered the door?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. Now, the door opens out,
25 correct?
00172
1 A The door opens in.
2 Q But the screen door, the outer
3 door opens out, doesn't it?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. You have got a little porch
6 there, right, which we saw in the pictures?
7 A Right.
8 Q Those pictures were taken by the
9 Police Department, weren't they?
10 A Right.
11 Q Now, when the two -- the initial
12 officers -- that was Officer Ulrich, and I'm
13 trying to remember the name of the other
14 officer. When they first arrived --
15 A Torres.
16 Q -- did they make any antigay
17 comments to you? The officers, when they
18 arrived, did they make any antigay comments to
19 you?
20 A Are you serious?
21 Q I'm asking you the question,
22 absolutely.
23 A Oh, no.
24 Q Okay.
25 A I mean, I didn't know if it was leading
00173
1 into something else.
2 Q Now, when Sergeant Amodeo arrived,
3 he was the supervisor that night, correct?
4 A He -- he didn't identify himself as a
5 supervisor. He said that, "I am de facto
6 Chief."
7 Q Okay.
8 A "I'm the senior ranking officer."
9 Q Now, in your presence he
10 instructed the two patrol officers to go next
11 door to the firehouse, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And he instructed them to get the
14 name of every man and woman who was in the
15 firehouse, correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And he also instructed them to
18 confiscate any open containers of alcohol,
19 correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And then the two officers went
22 next door and left Sergeant Amodeo there,
23 correct?
24 A Yes, they did.
25 Q Okay. Now, Sergeant Amodeo told
00174
1 you that the firehouse would be shut down that
2 night, right? Did he tell you that?
3 A I think that he told me that, sir, after
4 we were in the living room.
5 Q Okay. And he told you that a
6 guard would be posted there that night, right?
7 A On my font porch that night.
8 Q He told you that the guard would
9 be sitting on your front porch, or he said the
10 guard would be sitting and watching your house
11 all night?
12 A He told me that a guard would be on my
13 porch all night.
14 Q On your porch all night?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Okay. And a guard was posted that
17 night, wasn't there?
18 A I assume so.
19 Q Well, didn't you -- didn't you
20 want to check and look outside, make sure the
21 guard was there?
22 A No, I didn't open the door. What I did
23 do was I went upstairs into a front bedroom and
24 looked out and saw a police car.
25 Q Where did you see the police car?
00175
1 A The police car was on Schopmann Road,
2 parked on Schopmann Road.
3 Q In front of your house?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q Okay. Was there policeman in the
6 car?
7 A I don't think so.
8 Q Do you know if they were sitting
9 on your front porch?
10 A I don't know that, you know, technically.
11 Q Now, you indicated that the
12 following morning there were three people showed
13 up. You knew the Mayor; you were -- were you
14 familiar --
15 A I didn't know the Mayor. I recognized
16 his face.
17 Q You recognized the Mayor?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And you did not recognize the
20 Police Chief; is that correct?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Did you recognize the Fire Chief?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Okay. So the Mayor showed up. He
25 introduced the Fire Chief, correct?
00176
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. He didn't introduce the
3 Police Chief?
4 A I don't believe so.
5 Q And once he introduced the Fire
6 Chief you decided that this was not a group of
7 people that you wanted to talk to, correct?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q Okay. Now, the house -- did
10 Sergeant Amodeo tell you the house was going to
11 be placed on priority check?
12 A I do not recall.
13 Q Do you know -- okay. Do you know
14 whether or not your house was, in fact, placed
15 on priority check?
16 A Well, I do not know that because when
17 they came on May 1, after the police were
18 called -- and it was Buckley's son. The Chief
19 Detective Buckley's son is about 19. He
20 answered the call when Patrick called about,
21 "The homos are home. Homos are home."
22 Q This is stuff --
23 A He told me that -- he told me that they
24 weren't -- it was not on patrol.
25 Q Everything that you know about
00177
1 that incident is something someone else told
2 you, correct, because you weren't there when it
3 happened?
4 MR. MULLIN: Objection. Which
5 incident, Your Honor?
6 Q You're talking about the
7 incident -- you're talking about the incident
8 that occurred, I believe, was it May 1st, the
9 following weekend?
10 A Well, I mean, if that's true, then I
11 could say the same thing about Amodeo. It's
12 just something I heard from him putting it on
13 the -- I mean, what's the difference?
14 Q But Mr. Carter, I am asking you
15 about the incident you were talking about on May
16 1st of --
17 A Right.
18 Q That was an incident when you came
19 home from work at Kohl's and Mr. Hjelm told you
20 something had happened, correct?
21 A Right.
22 Q So what you know of that incident
23 you know based upon what Mr. Hjelm told you
24 occurred, correct?
25 A Yeah.
00178
1 Q Okay. Now, are you aware that the
2 next day after the incident, on the 26th, that
3 the Secaucus Police notified the Hudson County
4 Prosecutor of the incident?
5 A My information about any of that never
6 came through them.
7 Q Okay.
8 A It came through --
9 Q Was it information about --
10 A It came through then Senator Corzine's
11 office.
12 Q Okay. So then, at that point in
13 time you were not aware that on at least two
14 occasions the Secaucus Police Department asked
15 the Hudson County Prosecutor to become involved
16 in the investigation? You were not aware of
17 that at the time?
18 A I'm not sure exactly what time I knew it.
19 I knew that Bobby Kickey, Jr. worked for the
20 Prosecutor's Office --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- so I must have known it at sometime.
23 Q Okay. And at the time you were
24 not aware as to what steps the Secaucus Police
25 Department was taking to gather information
00179
1 about the incident before the Attorney General
2 took over the investigation; is that true?
3 A Say it again, sir.
4 Q Okay. At the time you were not
5 aware that -- of the efforts being made by the
6 Secaucus Police Department to investigate the
7 incident before the Attorney General's Office
8 took over the investigation?
9 A Yes, sir, that's correct, because it was
10 completely out of our hands.
11 Q Now, you know -- you -- you also
12 didn't know at the time how many potential
13 witnesses the Secaucus Police Department
14 interviewed before the Attorney General took
15 over the investigation, do you?
16 A I did have an idea because Dominic
17 DeGennaro had told me and Troyanski. They had
18 made many attempts to interview, let's put it
19 that way.
20 Q Now, on the 29th the Secaucus
21 Police Department indicated to you that they
22 were going to take a statement from you,
23 correct, a formal written statement?
24 A Well, they called us on Tuesday; and we
25 all sketched out our times.
00180
1 Q Okay. So you went down to the
2 Secaucus Police Department at the earliest time
3 that you were available?
4 A I did.
5 Q Okay. And a written statement
6 that you referred to earlier was prepared,
7 correct?
8 A It was.
9 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, we would
10 just like to set up a copy of a blowup of the
11 statement. This is document D-64 and D-65.
12 Q Mr. Carter, when was the last time
13 you had an opportunity to review this statement?
14 A Probably three days ago.
15 Q Pardon me?
16 A Three days ago, sir.
17 Q Okay. Without me -- let me give
18 you a copy of it, all right, because I want to
19 ask you some questions about it.
20 A Okay.
21 Q Okay. You have given some
22 testimony with regard to the statement already?
23 A Okay.
24 Q I just want to clarify a couple
25 things. You indicated -- okay. By the time you
00181
1 gave this statement had you already been
2 contacted by the Governor's Office? Mr. Carter?
3 A No.
4 Q And by the time you had this
5 statement had you retained an attorney to
6 represent you?
7 A Absolutely not.
8 Q Okay. Now, you indicated that you
9 spoke to two detectives, correct?
10 A Right.
11 Q And who were they again?
12 A They were Detective Reinke and Detective
13 Dominic DeGennaro.
14 Q Okay. And you said you spoke to
15 them for a period of time and then they -- and
16 they were also typing up your statement,
17 correct?
18 A Yes, I spoke to them from -- for a long
19 time because it's -- it's like two-and-a-half
20 hours I was there.
21 Q Okay. Now, in your statement you
22 indicated what you had done that evening,
23 correct? Correct?
24 A That evening or that morning?
25 Q I'm sorry, the evening of the
00182
1 25th.
2 A Okay.
3 Q Correct?
4 A You mean during the events?
5 Q Right.
6 A Okay. I just want to get you straight.
7 Q Okay.
8 A Okay. Go ahead.
9 Q Okay. So they ask you what
10 happened that morning, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you gave a statement as to
13 what had happened that morning, correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Okay. Just a couple things.
16 After the statement was typed up there is some
17 handwriting on this statement. Do you see that?
18 Right? Do you see it? You have to answer
19 verbally, I'm sorry.
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. And is this handwriting
22 yours?
23 A It is, indeed.
24 Q Okay. Now, the first thing that
25 you handwrote into this statement was that you
00183
1 looked at clock, it was 12:50 a.m. And those
2 are your initials? Those are your initials
3 there?
4 A Uh-huh.
5 Q Okay. So --
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- when you read this statement
8 over, you felt that it was important to add in
9 the words, "Looked at clock. It was 12:50
10 a.m.," correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. And then, "Went down and"
13 -- it indicates, "I said," quote, "Guys, it" --
14 "1:00 in the morning. Could you please shut the
15 hell up?" And then you thought it was important
16 to add the word "already," correct?
17 A Well, I had -- I had carefully
18 wordsmithed that to try to strike a balance.
19 Q A balance between what and what?
20 A A balance between outright rage and being
21 totally a door mat.
22 Q But you thought it was important,
23 when you were giving the statement to the police
24 that you were going to sign your name to, to add
25 the word "already," correct?
00184
1 A Yes, because it softened it.
2 Q And you said it, and you wanted
3 that statement to be accurate?
4 A Yes, I thought -- I thought anything that
5 could be accurate should be accurate. Don't
6 you?
7 Q Okay. Now, you also indicated
8 some additional words that had not been taken
9 down before earlier in the statement, correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you added words at the bottom;
12 and that's in your handwriting, correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. Before we get off this
15 page, you indicated, "At that time" -- "At that
16 time" -- do you see that? Towards the -- I
17 guess little bit towards the top third. "At
18 that time I heard what sounded like a big rock
19 hit the side of my fence." Do you see that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. And let's go on to the
22 second page, if we could. All right. You
23 indicated that while all this was going on you
24 were afraid for your safety and Peter's safety
25 but you thought to grab your tape recorder but
00185
1 you couldn't find it, correct?
2 A Yes, but that was just a really fleeting,
3 you know, thought that went through my head --
4 Q All right.
5 A -- at the very beginning.
6 Q And then there is some more
7 quotations in terms of what was said that
8 evening. Then it asks if you had any previous
9 problems with members of the Fire Department.
10 Do you see that? Do you see where it says that?
11 Question: Have you had any previous problems?
12 A Maybe if you would --
13 Q Sure.
14 A -- kind of --
15 Q Sure. Let me help you.
16 A -- tell me which paragraph.
17 Q It's on the next page, I'm sorry.
18 It's on the second page of the statement.
19 A Okay.
20 Q There we go.
21 A Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Paris.
22 Q It says, "Have you had any
23 previous problems with members of the Fire
24 Department," right?
25 A Right.
00186
1 Q And you indicated, "In either
2 October, November or December of last year." So
3 here we are in April of '04; and you're
4 recalling something that occurred in October,
5 November or December of 2003, right? Right? Do
6 you see that?
7 A I do, yes.
8 Q Okay.
9 A That's right.
10 Q So it would have been October,
11 November, December of '03. "Someone had been
12 ringing my doorbell and running," right?
13 Then you indicate, "On one occasion
14 after the doorbell rang I did look outside my
15 side window and saw an unknown fireman running
16 towards the front of the firehouse near the call
17 box." Then it says -- then it says, "I could
18 identify this fireman, but he was wearing a Fire
19 Department shirt." Did you mean to say, "I
20 could not identify him, but he was wearing a
21 Fire Department shirt"?
22 A Where is this?
23 Q "I did look outside my side
24 window." You see that? "Saw an unknown
25 fireman." "I could identify this fireman, but
00187
1 he was wearing a Fire Department shirt."
2 A What I -- what I couldn't do until the
3 next week, when the party at the Cliffside
4 restaurant was published with all the names
5 under it and their trophies, I could not put a
6 name to who he was. And it -- I do know that
7 I'm on -- that I am on testimony saying --
8 describing him. I said, you know, he had the --
9 the triple-process bleach and so forth.
10 Q So when you said, "I could
11 identify this fireman," did you mean to say, "I
12 could not identify this fireman, but he was
13 wearing a Fire Department shirt"?
14 A No.
15 Q You meant to say you could
16 identify him, but he was wearing a Fire
17 Department shirt?
18 A I -- I don't -- I don't want to speculate
19 on that.
20 Q Okay. At this point you didn't
21 say, "I" -- "He was wearing a Fire Department
22 shirt, and he had triple-process blond hair"?
23 You didn't say that?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 Q It's not in your statement,
00188
1 though?
2 A It doesn't matter --
3 Q Okay.
4 A -- because we had two-and-a-half hours.
5 It's not like her taking down a transcript.
6 Q Okay.
7 A That was the understanding.
8 Q Okay. Mr. Carter, in your
9 statement -- although in your statement it says
10 he was wearing a Fire Department shirt, you
11 don't say it was the one with the
12 triple-processed hair in your statement,
13 correct?
14 A I say it elsewhere in my statement.
15 Q Okay. In this statement can you
16 show me where you indicate that it was the
17 gentleman with the triple-processed hair who --
18 A In this statement?
19 Q Yes, in this statement.
20 A I say it in this statement when we were
21 with the attorney for Iacono, I'm thinking, the
22 African-American gentleman.
23 Q You are talking about during
24 depositions, during litigation?
25 A Yes.
00189
1 Q Okay. But I'm talking about when
2 you gave a statement to the police. You didn't
3 say -- you didn't put in your statement -- you
4 didn't add to your statement, the way you added
5 on page one, you didn't add in that it was
6 the -- the guy with the triple-processed hair?
7 A Okay, did not add into it. Okay. I
8 didn't add in and marginalize. We had been
9 there two-and-a-half hours. It's 10:30 at
10 night. However, what must also be said is that
11 we were with those two detectives for
12 two-and-a-half hours. This is by no means, you
13 know, any prolific -- prolific notes on what
14 took place during that conversation. So I am
15 definitely not willing to say I didn't say that.
16 I -- knowing me, I imagine I got it in.
17 Q Okay. So you're not willing to
18 say where it said -- where it says, "Is there
19 anything else that you would like to add to your
20 statement here" and you wrote, "No," you're not
21 willing to say that that's true?
22 A They were saying they're going home,
23 they're tired.
24 Q Okay.
25 A I thought that I believed them. I
00190
1 trusted them. I thought this is what they do.
2 It's a synopsis. And just like the opening
3 statements at the beginning before jurors, I
4 heard, "That's a synopsis; don't get bent out of
5 shape. That's the spirit in which" --
6 Q That's the spirit in which you
7 signed this?
8 A That is the spirit in which I signed
9 that --
10 Q Okay.
11 A -- yes, indeed.
12 Q Now, let's see. You now spoke
13 about the condoms, correct?
14 A Well, you tell me.
15 Q Well, continuing after, "Fire
16 Department shirt" you say also found condoms in
17 your backyard on three occasions, correct?
18 A Right.
19 Q And you indicate that you saw two
20 people sitting in a parked car on the fire lot,
21 et cetera, correct?
22 A That's right.
23 Q Now, then you were asked the
24 question, "Are you able to identify anyone
25 involved in this incident?"
00191
1 And your answer was, "No," correct?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q And then you were asked, "Do you
4 wish to pursue criminal charges against anyone
5 involved in this incident?"
6 Your answer was, "Yes," correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And you -- you were asked, "Is
9 there anything else that you would like to add
10 to your statement?"
11 And your answer was, "No," correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q You were asked, "Has anyone forced
14 you to make this statement today or made you any
15 promises in exchange for your statement?"
16 And you said, "No," correct?
17 A Correct.
18 Q And then you said -- "After you
19 read your statement and find it to contain the
20 truth, will you sign it?"
21 You answered, "Yes," correct? Correct?
22 A Yeah, correct.
23 Q Okay. And then you indicated that
24 you have read each page of the statement,
25 consisting of two pages, knowing that any false
00192
1 statements made herein are punishable by law.
2 "I certify to the facts contained in here are
3 true and correct." And you signed that,
4 correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Carter, was
7 Mr. deVries with you when you gave this
8 statement?
9 A Of course not.
10 Q Okay. Now, after the incident did
11 you go to work?
12 MS. SMITH: Can you take your
13 screen away?
14 MR. PARIS: Sure. Let me just
15 move it out of the way. That's okay; I can move
16 it.
17 BY MR. PARIS:
18 Q Did you continue to go to work
19 after the incident?
20 A The first time that I went to work was on
21 May 1.
22 Q That was the first time that you
23 went to work after the incident?
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q And that was the day that we spoke
00193
1 about earlier with Mr. Hjelm?
2 A It is.
3 Q Did you drive to work when you
4 were working at Kohl's?
5 A Most often.
6 Q Now, with regard to the voice mail
7 that we heard earlier today, that -- the call
8 that you made to Mayor Elwell, that wasn't a
9 copy that you had, was it? That was a copy that
10 Mayor Elwell kept; isn't that true?
11 A Can you ask my attorneys?
12 Q You're not aware? You're not
13 aware, for example, as to who had that voice
14 mail message, correct? Mr. Carter?
15 A It came -- it came -- came to our
16 attorneys. It was subpoenaed.
17 Q Okay. But my question is -- all
18 right. Let me ask you this way. You didn't
19 keep a copy of the voice mail message, did you?
20 A No, no, no.
21 Q Do you know whether or not Mayor
22 Elwell actually turned that voice mail message
23 over to the Police Department and then to the
24 Attorney General -- at least to the Police
25 Department?
00194
1 A I don't know where he turned it over to.
2 Q Now, I want to talk to you about
3 the evening after the -- the incident on
4 April 25th. That evening, okay, you had
5 presence of mind to start sending out e-mails to
6 a number of different people, correct?
7 A Presence of mind? Presence of terror.
8 Q And you placed dozens of phone
9 calls and e-mails that morning, correct?
10 A To anybody I thought could protect us.
11 Q You sent an e-mail to every New
12 Jersey State Assembly person?
13 A They can protect us maybe.
14 Q To Senator Corzine, who was the
15 Senator at the time?
16 A Logical place to start.
17 Q I'm not asking you to justify it.
18 Could you just answer "yes" or "no" as to
19 whether these are all people that you sent
20 e-mails or letters to that evening or early in
21 the morning of April 25th?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. The Governor's Office?
24 Yes? No?
25 A Yes.
00195
1 Q Attorney General's Office?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Senator Frank Lautenberg?
4 A Yes. And he answered.
5 Q Representative Barney Frank from
6 Massachusetts?
7 A A personal friend.
8 Q Okay. You sent one to all the
9 major antigay violence support groups?
10 A And churches.
11 Q One to the professors, all the
12 professors at Rutgers; isn't that correct?
13 A Absolutely.
14 Q Columbia University?
15 A Harvard, Yale.
16 Q Well, we have to make sure the
17 record -- Columbia, correct?
18 A Right.
19 Q Harvard, Yale; is that correct?
20 A That's right.
21 Q To some well known gay writers,
22 correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. To the LAM, legal defense
25 fund?
00196
1 A Yes.
2 Q To the Vice Chancellor and
3 Minister at Harvard, Reverend Peter Gomes?
4 A Right.
5 Q To Gordon due glance, an
6 Episcopalian priest?
7 A Gordon, the Reverend Dr. Gordin Duggans.
8 Q To congressman Steve Rothman?
9 A Steve Rothman, yep.
10 Q And to the Secaucus Home News?
11 A I did.
12 Q Okay.
13 A And that shows how trusting I was.
14 Q Okay. You composed a separate
15 e-mail for each one of those, correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And essentially, you were sending
18 letters to everyone that you could think of that
19 evening, right?
20 A Yes. I couldn't figure out how to cut
21 and paste them. I had a new computer.
22 Q Go on to page 189 -- Plaintiff's
23 Exhibit 189.
24 MR. PARIS: Now, excuse me, Your
25 Honor. If I can just have one second?
00197
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure. We will go
2 off the record for a moment.
3 MR. PARIS: If we could, thank
4 you.
5 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
6 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
7 off the record.)
8 BY MR. PARIS:
9 Q Okay. Mr. Carter --
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Back on the record.
11 MR. PARIS: I'm sorry.
12 COURT CLERK: Back on the record.
13 BY MR. PARIS:
14 Q I'm showing you a document which
15 is marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 189. And I'm
16 directing your attention to the bottom of the
17 exhibit, which is an e-mail from you to -- I'm
18 not sure who that person is, but it's a chair of
19 the NJLGC.org.
20 A Yeah, that's the -- that's the, really,
21 the State national gay and lesbian, bi,
22 transgendered organization that --
23 Q I just want to ask you, page two
24 of the document, which is your e-mail, okay, to
25 that group, you indicate that on April 25th --
00198
1 this actually was at 8:13 in the evening,
2 correct, that same day?
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q You indicate that they had a
5 baseball bat. Do you see that?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q Okay.
8 A And they did have baseball bats. They
9 were playing spring baseball.
10 Q In your statement to the police
11 you didn't indicate that they had baseball bats,
12 did you?
13 A Well, you know --
14 Q Did you?
15 A I can't recall.
16 Q But you wanted that organization
17 to -- to either know or believe that the firemen
18 had taken baseball bats to your house, right?
19 A Well, they did. They were in their
20 trunks because they were playing baseball
21 practice. And after all, there are millions of
22 pieces of damaging information.
23 Q Mr. Carter, in this e-mail, as
24 well, you indicated that you did not think --
25 you indicated that perhaps you were in denial,
00199
1 but you didn't think that the condoms were being
2 thrown onto your property because you were gay
3 and you did not see that as antigay harassment,
4 correct?
5 MR. MULLIN: When, Your Honor?
6 Objection. Time frame should be involved.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
8 MR. PARIS: I've indicated this
9 was written on April 25th at 8:13.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: I don't understand
11 the time frame of the question either.
12 MR. PARIS: I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: If you could
14 rephrase it.
15 BY MR. PARIS:
16 Q When you wrote this e-mail on
17 April 25th, 2004 at 8:13 in the evening you
18 indicated in the e-mail that you did not think
19 the condoms were being thrown because you were
20 gay. You said, "Perhaps I was in a state of
21 denial," correct?
22 A You're saying I was saying that on the
23 night of the 25th?
24 Q You said on the 25th that when
25 you -- when the condoms were originally thrown,
00200
1 you did not perceive that initially as antigay
2 harassment?
3 A On the night of the 25th they were
4 saying, "Do you want some more of our dirty
5 condoms?"
6 Q I understand that.
7 A "Do you want us to jerk you a new one?"
8 There was no question about it.
9 Q But my question was when they --
10 when they were originally found on your
11 property, you did not consider that at the time
12 that you found them to be antigay harassment?
13 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, can we
14 have the plaintiff read that sentence to the
15 jury that Mr. Paris is referring to?
16 MR. PARIS: That's fine.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
18 MR. MULLIN: The whole sentence.
19 Maybe you can show him what you are referring
20 to.
21 BY MR. PARIS:
22 Q Do you see the sentence I'm
23 referring to? Here it says, "I guess." You see
24 that? "I guess I was" --
25 MR. MULLIN: Can we have -- it's a
00201
1 three-sentence paragraph. Can we have the whole
2 paragraph?
3 Q You can read the paragraph. Do
4 you see the paragraph?
5 A "About six weeks"?
6 Q Go ahead.
7 A "About six weeks ago the firemen started
8 throwing condoms over the fence and onto our
9 deck. These were used condoms. They have sex
10 in the cars with their girlfriends and then
11 throw the dirty condoms over the fence. I guess
12 I was in denial because I never thought they
13 were doing it because we were gay."
14 Q Is that the end of that paragraph?
15 Okay. I'll take that.
16 Mr. Carter, are you okay? Do you need
17 a break? Do you want a break?
18 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, can we
19 have the afternoon break at this point?
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure. Thank you.
21 We will go off the record.
22 If you would like to come back in
23 about 15 minutes, about five of 2. Thank you.
24 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
25 (Whereupon, a brief recess is
00202
1 taken.)
2 COURT CLERK: Jurors are
3 approaching. On the record.
4 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
5 into the courtroom.)
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. We are
7 back on the record. The jury has returned to
8 the jury box.
9 Mr. Paris.
10 BY MR. PARIS:
11 Q Now, that same evening, the
12 evening of April 25th, at about 10:00 in the
13 evening you sent an e-mail to the Hudson County
14 Prosecutor? P-194.
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Is that true?
17 A I don't know. I'd have to look at it.
18 Q I'm showing you the document that
19 was marked as P-194. Okay. And I'm referring
20 to the -- the original message from Timothy
21 Carter to HCPO. That's the Hudson County
22 Prosecutor's Office, correct?
23 A That's the what?
24 Q Hudson County Prosecutor's Office,
25 correct?
00203
1 A I -- I don't know where I got that
2 from --
3 Q Okay.
4 A -- but yes.
5 Q And you thought, when you wrote
6 this, that you were sending this to the Hudson
7 County Prosecutor's Office, right? Well, you
8 addressed it, "Dear Sir, or Madam Prosecutor."
9 Do you see that?
10 A I guess.
11 Q Do you see --
12 MR. MULLIN: Can you just point it
13 to him?
14 MR. PARIS: Yeah, sure.
15 BY MR. PARIS:
16 Q Mr. Carter, this portion --
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q -- of this document, P-194, is an
19 e-mail from Timothy Carter. That's you, right?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q Okay.
22 A Yes.
23 Q And it says, "Sent Sunday
24 April 25th at 10:20 p.m." Do you see that?
25 A I do.
00204
1 Q Okay. And it says, "To
2 HCPO@HCPO.org," correct?
3 A Okay.
4 Q And it's addressed, "Dear Sir, or
5 Madam Prosecutor"?
6 A Okay.
7 Q And when you wrote this, you were
8 intending to send this to the Hudson County
9 Prosecutor's Office, correct?
10 A I suppose.
11 Q Do you know who Edward DeFazio is,
12 Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you know who Edward DeFazio is?
15 A No.
16 Q When you wrote this you were
17 addressing it to, "Dear Sir, or Madam
18 Prosecutor," correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. Now, in the subject line
21 that you wrote, right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Can you read to the jury what you
24 wrote as to the subject?
25 A "We were attacked by Ladder 2 firemen of
00205
1 Secaucus and wish to press charges. We are not
2 receiving cooperation, apparently."
3 Q So by 10:00 that evening you had
4 already decided that you were not receiving
5 cooperation, apparently, correct?
6 A That is correct, because we had been
7 promised --
8 Q Mr. --
9 A -- on Sunday they would press charges on
10 Sunday.
11 Q On Sunday?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Who made that promise to you?
14 A Peter -- who made it.
15 Q Pardon me?
16 A Peter will have to tell you.
17 Q You don't know who made that
18 promise to you?
19 A Not at the moment.
20 Q Pardon me?
21 A Not at the moment.
22 Q At the moment you don't recall who
23 made the promise, or at the moment you don't
24 recall having heard the promise?
25 A At the moment I don't recall having made
00206
1 the promise?
2 Q No, no. I want to know at this
3 moment do you recall someone telling you that
4 night that apparently there would be charges
5 pressed the very next day?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. And that would have been on
8 Monday?
9 A Well, what we were told about Monday was
10 that on Monday the -- what we were told was that
11 on Monday Leanza, the Town attorney, was going
12 to rule officially on whether it was a bias
13 crime and that the charges were being held up
14 until he made that ruling.
15 Q Okay. You were told that? Your
16 testimony now is that you were told that?
17 A That is my testimony.
18 Q By whom? By whom?
19 A Our contacts in the Detective's Office.
20 Q Okay. So who -- who was it? You
21 know the names of all these people, and you're
22 mentioning names. Who told you that Mr. Leanza
23 on Monday would review this and determine if
24 there was a bias crime? Who told you that?
25 A Well, I talked to Buckley, Chief
00207
1 Detective Buckley.
2 Q Okay. And he told you that?
3 A I'm not sure which one told me.
4 Q Okay. When did they tell you?
5 A I called the Police Chief's office to
6 say, "I didn't know you were at my door. I
7 thought you were the fireman."
8 Q Okay.
9 A And I talked to his secretary --
10 Q Okay.
11 A -- and she told me.
12 Q When were you told that charges
13 would be pressed on Monday?
14 A Absolutely I was told on Sunday.
15 Q Okay. When?
16 A When? During Sunday there were
17 conversations going back and forth with the
18 detectives, and it passed through there.
19 Q So when you -- by Sunday night you
20 expected that on Monday Mr. Leanza --
21 A Oh, yes.
22 Q -- would make a determination on
23 Monday --
24 A Yes.
25 Q -- correct?
00208
1 A Because I called him Monday morning.
2 Q Okay. But Mr. Carter, you wrote
3 this e-mail on Sunday night at 10:20 in the --
4 in the evening; and you already wrote, "We are
5 not receiving cooperation, apparently." Mr.
6 Leanza hadn't even been to his office, had he?
7 A Well, it must have been ESP because we
8 didn't receive cooperation.
9 Q Well --
10 A Maybe I was just getting it ready.
11 Q Mr. Carter, aren't you aware that
12 on Monday the Secaucus Police Department,
13 notwithstanding your e-mail, contacted the
14 Hudson County Prosecutor?
15 A Absolutely not.
16 Q You weren't aware of that --
17 A No.
18 Q -- were you? Okay. But by 10:00
19 on Sunday night you already thought that you
20 weren't receiving cooperation, apparently,
21 correct?
22 A So what?
23 Q Isn't that true, Mr. Carter?
24 A I had to defend myself.
25 MR. MULLIN: Wait for the next
00209
1 question, Mr. Carter.
2 Q Isn't it true?
3 MR. MULLIN: Isn't what true, Your
4 Honor?
5 MR. PARIS: I don't know if he
6 answered the question.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Please repeat the
8 question.
9 BY MR. PARIS:
10 Q Isn't it true that notwithstanding
11 the fact that Mr. Leanza was going to come in
12 Monday and review the matter, but that Sunday
13 night you are writing to the Hudson County
14 Prosecutor saying you're not receiving
15 cooperation?
16 A I don't remember the sequence, but I
17 remember there was a conversation. And I'm not
18 even sure it ended -- you know what, I'm not
19 even sure it ended in -- in saying Monday we
20 will tell you. I'm not so sure they didn't tell
21 us that Leanza is over -- is looking over this
22 right now and you should have an answer tonight.
23 Q You're not -- and you're not sure
24 of that, are you? So when you told the jury a
25 few minutes ago that Mr. Leanza was going to
00210
1 look at this on Monday, you weren't sure about
2 that, were you?
3 A I do remember specifically that part.
4 Q About him looking at this Monday?
5 A I do not remember if they at first said
6 he would look at it on Sunday.
7 Q But now -- but in terms of the
8 sequence, you certainly know that by 10:00,
9 10:20 on Sunday, April 25th, you were already
10 complaining that you were not receiving
11 cooperation from Secaucus?
12 A Well, excuse me, I was worried.
13 Q Now, Mr. --
14 A What of it? We had every reason to be
15 terrified.
16 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, there is
17 no question.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: There is no
19 question.
20 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
21 BY MR. PARIS:
22 Q Now, Mr. Carter, you also sent an
23 e-mail on -- I'm showing you the portion down
24 here --
25 A All right.
00211
1 Q Okay. -- to a number of different
2 people, May 2nd, Sunday May 2nd, 12:40, right?
3 Saturday -- excuse me. Here is the original
4 message. You see here, Mr. Carter?
5 A Yeah.
6 MR. MULLIN: What exhibit number
7 are we on?
8 MR. PARIS: This is exhibit
9 Plaintiff's 191, your exhibit, Exhibit 191.
10 BY MR. PARIS:
11 Q You see, "From Timothy Carter, May
12 1," right? May 1, 9:00 in the evening, correct?
13 A Yeah.
14 Q Okay. Now, who are you sending
15 this e-mail to?
16 A Well, let's see here. I was sending them
17 to anybody I could find to talk to.
18 Q Okay.
19 A The first one is sent to the -- to the
20 headquarters of the Senior Citizens Gay
21 Alliance. And they are often a very, very good
22 resource. What else is it you want to know?
23 Q Okay. That's who you sent --
24 A It's a string of their staffers; I
25 happened to remember their names.
00212
1 Q Can you take a look at this,
2 Mr. Carter? In this e-mail okay you indicate
3 that, "This is extremely urgent," correct?
4 Correct?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q Okay. You indicated in this
7 e-mail that, "The Secaucus Police in charge of
8 the investigation do not want any other agency
9 to have the investigation." Do you see where
10 you said that?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q When you said that, were you aware
13 that Secaucus was already asking the Hudson
14 County Prosecutor to become involved in the
15 investigation?
16 A As I have said, I was not aware of that,
17 nor do I believe that ever happened until
18 Senator Corzine's office intervened.
19 Q Mr. Carter, when you wrote that
20 statement, that the Secaucus Police Department
21 did not want any other agency to have the
22 investigation, you didn't know whether that was
23 true or not true, did you?
24 A I know it's what I -- we were told. And
25 I suppose that answer is going to have to come
00213
1 from Peter, rather than me.
2 Q Now --
3 A I did have an awful lot going on.
4 Q Now, in addition, Mr. Carter, the
5 last paragraph of this e-mail, do you see it?
6 The very last paragraph.
7 A Okay.
8 Q Actually, did I give you my copy?
9 A Who knows?
10 Q Now I know. I will give you this
11 clean copy. I'll take my copy. Thank you.
12 Last paragraph. Here.
13 A Thank you, sir.
14 Q Last paragraph you wrote, "We need
15 publicity. The pressure of the Town to protect
16 us until we can get out of here." Do you see
17 that?
18 A That's right.
19 Q Okay.
20 MR. MULLIN: Can we have the --
21 Q Now, Mr. Carter, I just want to
22 ask you a couple brief questions. With regard
23 to the baking soda, when did you first go out of
24 the house and buy baking soda to spread around?
25 A On Sunday.
00214
1 Q This is Sunday?
2 A The 25th.
3 Q April 25th, okay. Did you go by
4 yourself, or anyone go with you?
5 A I went by myself.
6 Q And where did you go?
7 A I went to the 99 cents store, which is
8 located at the very opposite end of that -- that
9 grocery store they closed and the liquor store.
10 Q How many times did you replace the
11 baking soda approximately? How many times did
12 you go out and re-spread baking soda around your
13 house?
14 A I'm very ADD. I mean, heaven knows. I
15 mean, I can't answer the question.
16 Q Do you know how many times you had
17 to go to the store and buy baking soda?
18 A I do remember. Twice.
19 Q Twice. Do you remember the last
20 time you put baking soda out around your house?
21 A I -- that entire weekend Peter was in
22 Philadelphia on a business meeting.
23 Q Now you're talking about the
24 weekend after this incident?
25 A That is right, sir.
00215
1 Q You believe he was in
2 Philadelphia? If I told you he was in New
3 Orleans and he had flown to New Orleans on
4 business, does that refresh your recollection?
5 A I think he was in New Orleans later on.
6 Q Do you recall submitting a
7 certification to the Court indicating that he
8 was in New Orleans on business the weekend
9 following this incident?
10 A So what?
11 Q I'm just asking you whether he
12 flew on a business trip --
13 A He went on a business trip about every
14 other week.
15 Q He was going on business trips
16 every other week; is that what you are saying?
17 A He went on frequent business trips.
18 Q Okay. So the week after this
19 happened he flew to New Orleans, correct?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q Just want to show you a
22 certification that you submitted, Mr. Carter.
23 Okay. Do you recognize your signature?
24 A I do, indeed.
25 Q Okay. Just showing you paragraph
00216
1 five. You indicated, "The weekend after the
2 attack Peter had to go to New Orleans for two
3 days on business"; is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Does that refresh your
6 recollection as to the fact that one week after
7 this incident Mr. deVries was flying on a
8 business trip?
9 A For what it's worth, yes.
10 Q How long did you -- when did you
11 first cover all your windows with newsprint?
12 A I remember covering all of them on -- it
13 was either during the week or up until Saturday.
14 Q Okay. I'm just trying to
15 understand. In other words, during the week
16 after the 25th?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q Okay. You don't know if you did
19 it that Sunday or the Monday or the Tuesday?
20 A No, it was an ongoing process.
21 Q Okay. So how long -- you're
22 talking about all the windows that are along the
23 side of the house in the picture that we saw?
24 A Right.
25 Q Okay. How long did you keep all
00217
1 of those windows covered with newsprint? How
2 long a period of time?
3 A I don't know because we went out on the
4 deck and we covered all the -- the deck with
5 newsprint too. I did. And we covered the
6 fence, so they couldn't see the dogs coming and
7 going.
8 Q Okay.
9 A Now, honestly, it would rain, sir.
10 They'd fall down. I'd get them up. I'd put
11 them back up. I cannot give you that date.
12 Q Okay. I'm just trying to
13 understand the windows. How long did you keep
14 newsprint over your windows?
15 A Well, if you want to ask the question
16 that way, without being specific, the first
17 thing that I did when we moved to Jersey City
18 was to cover all the -- you didn't say where --
19 cover all the windows in newsprint. So I guess
20 you would say I did it for at least a year, or
21 you could even say I did it for four years
22 because I did it this morning before we left
23 because those firemen know we're not home and we
24 have left our dog there.
25 Q Mr. Carter, so your testimony is
00218
1 that from the time after this incident until the
2 time that you left Secaucus your windows along
3 the side of the house where the Fire Department
4 was, okay, were totally covered with newsprint,
5 except for that little hole where the green
6 cellophane was?
7 A I never said any such of a thing.
8 Q Well, I'm trying to understand.
9 A You show me in the deposition where I say
10 we never took it down.
11 Q Pardon me?
12 A Show me in the deposition where it says
13 it was never taken down.
14 Q Mr. Carter, I just want us to have
15 the information, okay. Can you tell us how long
16 you kept newsprint over your windows in
17 Secaucus?
18 A You just said I kept it there the whole
19 time.
20 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, I hate
21 to --
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Carter, just --
23 just take a breath. If you forget what has been
24 asked or not -- if you would just listen to
25 Mr. Paris' question. He is going to rephrase
00219
1 the question. Okay. Just listen to his
2 question, okay, so don't worry about what he
3 said before this. You've already answered.
4 Okay.
5 BY MR. PARIS:
6 Q I am going to start at the
7 beginning, Mr. Carter.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Do you
9 understand?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Please start
12 again.
13 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
14 BY MR. PARIS:
15 Q Mr. Carter, you indicated that
16 there came a point in time after the incident of
17 the 25th that you covered your windows in
18 Secaucus with newsprint; is that correct?
19 A I did.
20 Q Did you cover all of your windows
21 that were facing the Fire Department parking lot
22 with newsprint?
23 A The -- in the living room, no.
24 Q So you left the window?
25 MR. MULLIN: I think he was trying
00220
1 to finish.
2 MR. PARIS: I'm sorry.
3 MR. MULLIN: I think he was trying
4 to finish his answer.
5 BY MR. PARIS:
6 Q Mr. Carter, you said, "The living
7 room, no." Are you done with your answer, or do
8 you have more answer? Do you need to see the
9 pictures?
10 A Pictures of what?
11 Q The side of the house.
12 A No. We started -- as I recall, I started
13 first covering the deck with newsprint for
14 concern with the dogs running down and up. And
15 I do know that on Saturday night, May the 1st,
16 was when I came out with my science project,
17 whatever, this board that I drilled a hole in
18 and made something that looked like a camera was
19 pointing toward the back door. I know I did
20 that then. I know I did baking soda heavy-duty
21 that time. I know I reinforced the rods in all
22 the sliding glass doors that can come in. These
23 are the things I can remember doing.
24 Q Okay. On Thursday you testified
25 that you put up newsprint on your windows?
00221
1 A Uh-huh.
2 Q Do you recall that testimony?
3 A Do I call that testimony?
4 Q Do you recall having testified --
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q -- and having told us -- okay.
7 What I'm trying to understand, Mr. Carter, is
8 did you cover all of your windows with
9 newsprint, all of the windows facing out to the
10 Fire Department or not?
11 A They were all covered --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- but not necessarily with newsprint.
14 Q Okay.
15 A Because I had draw shade -- blinds in the
16 front that would -- that were very expensive and
17 right up against the window.
18 Q Okay. So again, Mr. Carter, I'm
19 trying to understand what you were testifying to
20 on Thursday and what it was like, okay. My
21 question is: So now is it your testimony that
22 you had the draperies or blinds blocking the
23 front windows? You know what, let's use a
24 photograph. Would that be more helpful to you?
25 A No, I don't need a photograph.
00222
1 Q Okay. So had the first group of
2 windows, the living room, those were covered not
3 with newsprint; those were covered with your
4 draperies, correct?
5 A Yes, because they were panels that slid
6 together.
7 Q Okay. So after this incident you
8 covered -- you drew the blinds in the living
9 room with these heavy-duty drapes; is that
10 correct?
11 A Heavy-duty drapes?
12 Q Well, you --
13 A We didn't have draperies.
14 Q I will call them "expensive
15 draperies." Did you close it with the expensive
16 draperies?
17 A Windows treatments.
18 Q With the expensive window
19 treatments?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you kept the front windows
22 closed with the expensive window treatments for
23 how long?
24 A That -- that house how long?
25 Q From when to when? That's how
00223
1 long; that's what I mean.
2 A Well, what if Peter is coming home on the
3 bus and I open them up to look out and wait,
4 does that not count? I don't know how to --
5 Q You're saying you would open them
6 when you needed to look out, correct? Is that
7 what you are telling us?
8 A I would open them when I needed to look
9 out. I guess I would peer out them, peer out of
10 them or something. Well, I used to peer out of
11 them at night to see if police car was out there
12 or patrolling.
13 Q But you had your drapes closed
14 otherwise, correct?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Okay. Now, you indicated that
17 windows were covered with newspaper. We know
18 what was going on with the living room windows
19 in the front. What windows did you cover with
20 newspaper?
21 A Well, the small kitchen window, now, had
22 the -- pardon me?
23 Q No, it's okay.
24 A The window is covered. It had my science
25 fiction, you know, thing going on.
00224
1 Q Okay.
2 A The -- I believe that all other shuttered
3 windows, which would have been the ones in front
4 of the breakfast nook, would most definitely
5 have been kept closed and probably had newsprint
6 over them. I know for certain that the entire
7 back porch, which was a heck of a job because
8 tape won't stick to wood, was covered in them.
9 Q Mr. Carter, for my benefit and the
10 jury's benefit --
11 MR. PARIS: Mr. Mullin, do you
12 mind if I use one of those pictures?
13 MR. MULLIN: I have no problem.
14 Go right ahead.
15 MR. PARIS: 163B.
16 BY MR. PARIS:
17 Q Mr. Carter, I don't want to --
18 Mr. Carter, just tell us, okay, these are the
19 living room windows in the front, correct? Do
20 you see? If you need to come down here --
21 A Thank you.
22 Q -- please feel free.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, can you come
24 down there? Or you can stand.
25 Q Okay. I am going to try to be an
00225
1 extension of your pointer. Are these the living
2 room windows?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And these are the ones that were
5 covered with the expensive window treatments?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. You kept those closed,
8 unless you had to peak out for some reason?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. This is the what? The
11 breakfast nook or the kitchen?
12 A Breakfast nook, yeah.
13 Q Okay. And how did you cover up
14 these windows, if you did?
15 A They had double shutters, top and bottom.
16 Q So these windows you shuttered,
17 correct?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q Okay. And you kept them shuttered
20 at all times; is that true?
21 A I would say as a rule, yes.
22 Q Kept them, unless you wanted to
23 peak out and see what was going on in the
24 parking lot, correct? Excuse me, Mr. Carter.
25 MR. MULLIN: You can answer his
00226
1 question. We are just standing here to watch.
2 MS. SMITH: Watch out for --
3 MR. MULLIN: Look out for Tracey.
4 BY MR. PARIS:
5 A Yes, yes, there would have been a lot of
6 peeping in, certainly.
7 Q You would have been peaking out to
8 see what was going on in the parking lot?
9 A You bet.
10 Q What about this little window
11 here?
12 A That little window had -- had shutters on
13 it too.
14 Q Okay. Now, Thursday, you said you
15 covered windows with newspaper. Which windows
16 did you cover with newspaper?
17 A I know it wasn't the first one. We've
18 ruled that out because I told you I had this
19 science fiction thing going on. And I know it
20 wasn't the living room because I had the
21 expensive window treatments. So I assume it was
22 the second one.
23 Q This window?
24 A Yes.
25 Q You had the science project going
00227
1 on here?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q Pardon me?
4 A For lack of a better name, yes.
5 Q Okay. Expensive window
6 treatments. You said this was shutters, I
7 thought?
8 A It is shutters.
9 Q But you -- in addition to the
10 shutters, you also put newsprint over this
11 window?
12 A Yes, because you can see through
13 shutters. And shutters also will kind of like
14 have a tendency to drift apart.
15 Q And you didn't want anyone out
16 here to be able to see what was going on in
17 there, right?
18 A Absolutely not.
19 Q Okay. And this had the science
20 project covering this window --
21 A Yes.
22 Q -- right? Expensive window
23 treatments. And the newsprint was on this now?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay. Thank you. And how long
00228
1 did you keep the newsprint up on that window?
2 A I have no idea.
3 Q Did you keep it up there until you
4 moved out of Secaucus?
5 A I can tell you this. When we moved out
6 of Secaucus I reversed front to back and put
7 newsprint all over the porch, so that we could
8 try to come in and out with as much privacy as
9 possible.
10 Q Okay. Again, I'm talking about
11 that window. Did you keep that window covered
12 until you went out?
13 A We kept the windows covered until we
14 moved out.
15 Q Okay. Now, want to talk to you a
16 little bit about the Attorney General's Office.
17 All right. You were aware that -- were you
18 aware that the Secaucus detectives invited
19 investigators from the Attorney General's Office
20 to attend a meeting in early May to discuss the
21 progress of the investigation? Were you aware
22 of that at the time?
23 A I was aware that Senator Corzine did
24 that.
25 Q Okay. And do you know whether
00229
1 the -- the Secaucus Police Department provided
2 the Attorney General's investigators with a
3 complete copy of their investigation file up to
4 that point for their review?
5 A I'm sorry, Mr. Paris, I had no access to
6 that kind of detail. It's privileged.
7 Q Do you know whether or not after
8 that meeting that the Secaucus detectives took
9 representatives from the Attorney General's
10 Office over to your house and the parking lot to
11 see the scene where the -- where the events of
12 April 25th took place?
13 A As I said, I had no privy knowledge to
14 even such events were taking place, let alone
15 knowing what they were doing. I would hope so.
16 Q Now, at some point you were
17 advised by an Investigator Troyanski from the
18 Attorney General's Office that the investigation
19 was being taken over by their office, correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And that was in early May; isn't
22 that true?
23 A I cannot tell you when it was.
24 Q And in fact, at that point in time
25 you were instructed by the Attorney General's
00230
1 Office to only discuss the -- your issues in
2 Secaucus with the Attorney General's Office;
3 isn't that true?
4 A I was instructed by Eugene Troyanski, the
5 detective. Those -- those instructions came
6 from him.
7 Q Right. And those instructions
8 were that you should be talking to them, not to
9 the so-called Police Department, correct?
10 A Those were his instructions. Where he
11 got them is another matter.
12 Q Okay. Did you ever tell the
13 Attorney General's Office that you saw
14 Mr. Snyder, Sr. ringing your doorbell?
15 A I'm sure I did. I don't know.
16 Q Okay. Did you ever tell the
17 Attorney General's Office that you spoke to
18 Mr. Snyder, Sr. regarding the condoms?
19 A You know, I just can't -- I really can't
20 recall. I just know that when I went before the
21 Grand Jury there was -- Peter was not even
22 invited. There was only myself versus eight
23 firemen.
24 Q Mr. -- Mr. Carter, my question to
25 you is: Did you ever tell the Attorney
00231
1 General's Office that you spoke to Mr. Snyder,
2 Sr. regarding the condoms?
3 A I don't know. I have very little contact
4 with them.
5 Q You're saying you had very little
6 contact with the Attorney General's Office?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you ever express to anyone
9 from the Attorney General's Office that you were
10 unhappy with Mr. Snyder, Sr.'s response to you
11 when you discussed the condoms with him?
12 A I simply cannot recall in that much
13 detail. The fraction -- the time that we spent
14 with them was a mere fraction of the amount of
15 time we have spent with you and Mr. Debere.
16 Q Bevere?
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q Okay. Mr. Carter, did you ever
19 tell the Attorney General's Office that you knew
20 who made statements to you and comments to you
21 on the early morning of April 25th?
22 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
23 Honor. This is going into an area that was
24 ruled on before. Maybe we should have a
25 sidebar.
00232
1 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
2 discussion is held.)
3 MR. MULLIN: I object to the
4 question because it's unintentionally misleading
5 because it says, "that you believed to be gay or
6 homophobic"; doesn't say that you believed when.
7 For example, after the incidents of April 25th
8 reasonable person can go back and say, well, all
9 that stuff that happened, ring and run, throwing
10 condoms, you know, that could -- that was now --
11 now it dawns on me this was antigay. So it's a
12 question -- I think he means at the time that
13 you believed was -- was antigay. It has to be
14 when -- you believed it when?
15 MR. PARIS: You know what, Judge,
16 maybe the thing that I should do is I will ask
17 him, if it's okay with the Court, the question
18 that he was asked at his deposition in 2006, was
19 the litigation was ongoing? I will ask him that
20 very question that was not objected to at the
21 time of his deposition. And I'll phrase the
22 question exactly the way it was asked at the
23 deposition.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: I think that's
25 fair.
00233
1 MR. MULLIN: I have no problem
2 with that.
3 MR. PARIS: Sure.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
5 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
6 concluded.)
7 BY MR. PARIS:
8 Q Mr. Carter, did you ever tell
9 anyone from the Attorney General's Office that
10 you knew who made the comments to you in the
11 early morning hours of April 25th?
12 A I can't remember.
13 Q You cannot remember? So you -- as
14 you sit here you don't remember if you told
15 anyone from the Attorney General's Office what
16 you told the jury about who was saying what on
17 the early morning hours of April 25th?
18 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
19 Honor, asked and answered. He just answered
20 that he can't remember. Same exact question.
21 MR. PARIS: It's not the same
22 question.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, Mr. Carter, I
24 know this is difficult. Don't look at Mr.
25 Mullin as if you're asking him for help in your
00234
1 answer. I'm sure you don't mean to do that.
2 But if you could just not -- not look at Mr.
3 Mullin at this point.
4 I'm going to -- it certainly is
5 asked and answer; but if you want to clarify it
6 one last time, I am going to allow that.
7 Mr. Paris is going to ask you the
8 question again. Okay. You have kind of
9 answered it, but just I am going to ask him to
10 ask you the question one more time.
11 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, I will
12 withdraw it.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay, fine.
14 BY MR. PARIS:
15 Q Now, Mr. Carter, at some point in
16 time after the -- at some point in time after
17 the dinner on the evening of April 24th into
18 25th there was a photograph that came out in the
19 newspaper of various people who attended the
20 dinner, correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Okay. And you saw that photograph
23 in the newspaper, correct?
24 A That is correct.
25 Q That's D-101. Okay.
00235
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Is this the photograph? Do you
3 recognize it from there? Otherwise, I'll --
4 A No, no, I know.
5 Q You remember it?
6 A I do, indeed.
7 Q When you saw -- when you saw that
8 photograph in the newspaper, you cut it out and
9 you sent it to the Attorney General's Office,
10 didn't you?
11 A I didn't.
12 Q You did not? Okay. Now, are you
13 aware -- do you know whether or not Mr. deVries
14 did that?
15 A I do not know.
16 Q Did you have any discussion with
17 Mr. deVries where it was agreed between the two
18 of you that one of you would send this
19 photograph down to the Attorney General?
20 A Heavens, no.
21 Q So when you saw the picture in the
22 paper, when you saw the picture in the paper,
23 you were not at all concerned that the picture
24 get into the hands of the Attorney General, were
25 you?
00236
1 A I don't understand the question.
2 Q Okay. My question is: You saw
3 the picture in the paper, right?
4 A Right.
5 Q Did you think it was important for
6 the Attorney General to have a copy of the
7 picture with the firemen all gathered around
8 with Mr. Snyder, Sr. and Mr. Snyder, Jr. and
9 Mr. Mutschler all in the picture that was taken,
10 you know, theoretically hours before the -- the
11 events of the 25th? Did you think it was
12 important that this picture get in the hands of
13 the attorney general?
14 A Can you give me a second?
15 Q Sure.
16 A Because, I mean, what I principally
17 remember is how astonished I was that they had
18 that picture printed in the paper. But I was
19 personally able to put names to faces that --
20 whom I knew well, you understand. I did not
21 handle mailing of things to our law firm or to
22 the -- anybody that -- our records management
23 person is Peter deVries.
24 Q Okay.
25 A So I cannot answer this question.
00237
1 Q But my question isn't about
2 Mr. deVries; it's about you. My question is:
3 When you saw the picture in the newspaper, did
4 you -- and now you're putting names together
5 with faces. Did you think it was important that
6 this picture get to the Attorney General's
7 Office? I'm asking what you thought. Did you
8 think it was important?
9 A I wasn't thinking that step. I was
10 thinking just of my local problem.
11 Q Okay.
12 A We were scared. I mean, we were -- it
13 wasn't about the Attorney General.
14 Q Mr. deVries.
15 A It was about being scared.
16 My name is Mr. Carter.
17 Q I'm showing you the photograph
18 that's been marked D-101. Okay. What's the
19 date of publication of that photograph?
20 A June 10, 2004.
21 Q Okay. Now, by June 10th of
22 2004 --
23 A Right.
24 Q -- you were firmly aware that the
25 Attorney General was handling this
00238
1 investigation, correct?
2 A No.
3 Q So by June 10th -- are you telling
4 us that you didn't know by June 10th that the
5 Attorney General's Office was handling the
6 investigation?
7 A Absolutely not.
8 Q Okay. Now, when you saw the
9 picture -- when you -- so as of June 10th you
10 had no idea that the Attorney General was -- was
11 handling the investigation; is that your
12 testimony?
13 A That is my testimony.
14 Q Okay. When you saw that picture,
15 who did you send it to?
16 A I told you; I didn't send out anything.
17 I can't mail anything. It never gets there.
18 Peter handles it.
19 Q Did you ask Peter to please mail
20 this to the Attorney General, to the Secaucus
21 Police Department, to Hudson County Prosecutor,
22 to any of the people that you sent e-mails to,
23 to any Senators, to anyone? Did you ask Peter
24 to mail it?
25 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
00239
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Basis?
2 MR. MULLIN: Asked and answered
3 about ten times, Your Honor.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
5 BY MR. PARIS:
6 Q Mr. deVries --
7 MR. MULLIN: It's Mr. Carter.
8 Q I'm sorry, Mr. Carter. Do you
9 know whether or not Captain Buckley from the
10 Secaucus Police Department, when he saw that
11 picture, sent it down to the Attorney General?
12 A How would I know?
13 Q During the course of your dealings
14 with the Attorney General sometime after
15 June 10th did anyone from the Attorney General's
16 Office show you that picture and ask you if you
17 could identify anyone in that picture as having
18 been involved in the events of April 25th?
19 A Absolutely not.
20 Q At any point in time did anyone
21 from the Attorney General's Office show you --
22 show you any other photographs of firemen from
23 Secaucus?
24 A Not to my recollection.
25 Q Now, in this particular case
00240
1 videotapes were taken of the depositions of
2 every fireman who was deposed, correct?
3 A I don't know that either.
4 Q You don't know that?
5 A We weren't told anything.
6 Q Okay. Did you see any videotapes
7 of any of the depositions of any of the firemen
8 that were conducted in this case?
9 A That I can tell you is absolutely not. I
10 never saw anything like that.
11 Q Now, you indicated earlier in your
12 testimony that you were called to appear before
13 a Grand Jury, correct?
14 A I think that's the language.
15 Q And that was in Trenton, correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And that was being conducted by
18 the Attorney General's Office, correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. Now, I just want to ask you
21 very, very briefly about the incident with the
22 shave cream on the wall. The first time that
23 you saw that, was that at 2 a.m. in the morning
24 when you first saw that?
25 A Well, the answer to that -- I can't
00241
1 recall offhand, but it was about that time. And
2 the answer to that should be in the police
3 detective -- police patroller's notes.
4 Q I am just trying to understand.
5 You indicated that you went out to a convenience
6 store that evening --
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q -- to get cigarettes for
9 Mr. deVries?
10 A Yes, because we were moving.
11 Q I know, you were packing.
12 A Yeah.
13 Q Did you actually leave your --
14 your house at around 2:00 in the morning to get
15 cigarettes?
16 A In the car.
17 Q Pardon me?
18 A In the car, yes.
19 Q Okay. Now, when you saw the
20 writing on the wall, that writing was in shaving
21 cream, correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. You didn't call the police
24 when you first saw it, did you?
25 A I didn't have to. We were standing there
00242
1 looking at it; and behind me pulls a police
2 cruiser with a woman in it, Secaucus Police
3 Officer, who got out with her camera and started
4 taking photographs.
5 Q Mr. Carter, when you first saw the
6 writing on the wall, you were in your car,
7 correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You went home?
10 A Yes.
11 Q You got Mr. deVries?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You got your camera?
14 A He got the camera.
15 Q And then you went outside, right?
16 You went right outside, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You stood right in front of the
19 Fire Department, right?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q And you started clicking
22 photographs?
23 A Right.
24 Q Okay. And then --
25 A I wouldn't say we stood right in front of
00243
1 the Fire Department.
2 Q Well, the wall was in front of the
3 Fire Department, right?
4 A Well, it's across the street.
5 Q Okay. Were you standing across
6 the street from the front of the Fire
7 Department?
8 A Yeah, so they couldn't have made some --
9 they couldn't have made a claim that we were
10 somehow trespassing on City property.
11 Q You think by being on the sidewalk
12 in front of the firehouse that you might be
13 called trespassers?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q Okay. So you were standing across
16 the street at 2:00 in the morning?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Across from the firehouse?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you were taking pictures?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. And you did that without
23 calling -- and you didn't call the police,
24 right?
25 A No.
00244
1 Q You never called the police about
2 this incident, did you?
3 A I don't know.
4 Q You don't know?
5 A I don't know. Find it in your dispatch
6 records. I can't remember.
7 Q Did you ever tell the attorney --
8 anyone from the Attorney General's Office about
9 this incident?
10 A The Attorney General's Office. This was
11 after -- this was after the Attorney General's
12 Office.
13 Q Okay. My question is: Did you
14 tell anyone from the Attorney General's Office
15 about the incident?
16 A My -- my answer is: Your chronology is
17 off. This was long afterwards.
18 Q Okay. What was the --
19 A In fact, the attorney -- the assistant
20 attorney -- the DAG working for us had
21 transferred to New York.
22 Q What was the date that you last
23 worked with the Attorney General's Office?
24 A I don't remember.
25 Q But it would have been before
00245
1 November of '04?
2 A Well, I know -- yeah, I don't remember.
3 Q So did you have any contact with
4 anyone from the Attorney General's Office after
5 you moved to Jersey City?
6 A Yes, and we had attorney -- we had -- we
7 had contact with them through Senator Menendez's
8 office.
9 Q So you had contact with the
10 Attorney General after you were in Jersey City,
11 correct?
12 A Right.
13 Q So then you were still in contact
14 with the Attorney General when the El Homo was
15 written in shaving cream on the wall?
16 A You know, Peter really was dealing more
17 with that. I was working.
18 Q He was dealing more with the
19 Attorney General's Office?
20 A Yes, he was dealing with the law offices,
21 period --
22 Q Okay.
23 A -- because it's less tiresome.
24 Q Now, in November of '04 or
25 December of '04, I'm not sure which, you
00246
1 indicated that you wanted to get police reports
2 from Secaucus, correct?
3 A I was asked by Smith Mullin to go and get
4 them.
5 Q Okay. Now, this -- the case was
6 already in litigation at this point, correct?
7 A How do I know?
8 Q You don't know when the litigation
9 was filed?
10 A I'm not a -- I'm not an attorney.
11 Q Mr. Carter, did you read any of
12 the newspaper articles that said, "Lawsuit Filed
13 Against Town?" Did you read them?
14 A Once again, I'm a layperson; and I don't
15 like using words when I don't know what I'm
16 talking about, sir.
17 Q Do you know that your -- that your
18 lawsuit against the Town was filed in July of
19 2004?
20 A Okay. I know that. What I don't know is
21 that that means we're in litigation.
22 Q Okay.
23 A It may seem simple to you; but for
24 non-attorneys, it's not.
25 Q Okay. If you don't understand any
00247
1 question I ask, just tell me you don't
2 understand it; and I'll be happy to put the
3 question in a form that's understood.
4 A That was the idea.
5 Q Okay. Now, when you were asked to
6 go to Secaucus, didn't you tell anyone that you
7 were afraid to go to Secaucus?
8 A I told Peter.
9 Q Didn't you say, "I don't want to
10 go to Secaucus. Can't you send someone else to
11 Secaucus? I hate going to Secaucus. And I'm
12 fearful and I'm afraid"?
13 A Pretty much.
14 Q But you were sent anyway?
15 A Well, somebody had to go.
16 Q Okay. In April of 2004 where were
17 you working? I know you indicated you were
18 working at Kohl's, correct?
19 A That is right.
20 Q Okay. And where else? Were you
21 working anywhere else or just at Kohl's?
22 A No, I had done a lot of -- that year I
23 had done a lot of permanent replacement
24 teaching. I have a New Jersey teacher's
25 license. And they would send me on long-term
00248
1 assignments, you know, teachers who are going to
2 be out for six months or whatever. And -- but
3 about that time the doctor who was going to be
4 the adviser to ADD-UP got things really cooking
5 with Shire, the pharmaceutical who could sponsor
6 the whole not-for-profit; and so I started
7 working on that.
8 Q You started working on ADD-UP?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Okay. And you quilt Kohl's? You
11 quit the substituting?
12 A I quit the substituting and concentrated
13 on ADD-UP --
14 Q Okay.
15 A -- and had Kohl's just for some little
16 extra mad money, you know, just a little bit of
17 extra money.
18 Q But were you getting paid by
19 ADD-UP?
20 A No --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- it's a start-up.
23 Q Your only source of income was
24 Kohl's as of April of 2004, right?
25 A My what?
00249
1 Q Your only source of income of
2 earned -- I should say your only source of
3 employment earnings was Kohl's in April of '04?
4 A I'm not sure about that.
5 Q Do you think you were working
6 somewhere else?
7 A No, I just think there is other ways to
8 have income.
9 Q Okay. I was talking about
10 employment income. That's why I used the word
11 "employment" income?
12 A Oh, pardon me. Yes, that is true.
13 Q Okay. And so April of '04 you're
14 only working at Kohl's?
15 A Right.
16 Q You're working there part-time, I
17 think you said, for mad money, right?
18 A Yeah, you know, just means pocket money.
19 Q And when did you stop working at
20 Kohl's?
21 A I stopped working at Kohl's on -- you
22 know, I really can't remember. Was it June?
23 Beginning of June? I don't know.
24 Q June of '04?
25 A I think.
00250
1 Q Same year?
2 A I have the date recorded.
3 Q Okay. And where are you working
4 now?
5 A Now I am working on long-term projects
6 with New Jersey, for the State, through the
7 State. And I work for the Department -- I work
8 for the Attorney General's Office, Division of
9 Consumer Affairs. I work for Rehabilitative
10 Services. I worked for Disability Services over
11 on Halsey Street. And I am working a lot with a
12 florist, Patricia Foo on West Side -- West End
13 Avenue, having a marvelous time. And that's all
14 I have been able to do while this is going on.
15 Q What do you mean "while this is
16 going on"?
17 A Well, I mean, I'm not going to go put a
18 24-hour shift, you know, at Greyhound or
19 something. There is only so much time I have to
20 work, and I'm spending it on our --
21 Q You a full-time employee of the
22 State of New Jersey?
23 A No, I am not. They have a hiring freeze.
24 Q So at this time you are not
25 working for the State of New Jersey, or are you?
00251
1 A I am working as a temp for the State of
2 New Jersey.
3 Q You are also working for a florist
4 in New York City?
5 A No, it's in -- it's right here in Jersey
6 City.
7 Q Oh, West End Avenue is in Jersey
8 City?
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes.
10 A I changed it to West Side.
11 Q I'm sorry, I guess I'm revealing
12 something. Okay. And when -- okay. Now, I
13 want to start -- I want to talk a little bit
14 about your prior history from a medical and
15 psychological standpoint, okay, Mr. Carter. You
16 have a prior -- in your -- in your history there
17 have been instances of harassment and taunts on
18 account of your sexual preference, correct?
19 A I would say that's true.
20 Q And you've described antigay
21 harassment as pretty much what your life is,
22 correct?
23 A I don't recall saying that.
24 Q Now, before this incident you were
25 seeing Dr. Almeleh every other week, correct?
00252
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And in your discussions with Dr.
3 Almeleh before this incident you discussed with
4 him your fear of death, correct?
5 A Kind of taken for granted, I think.
6 Q Pardon me?
7 A I think it's kind of taken for granted.
8 We are all afraid of death.
9 Q Is your answer yes?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you discussed with him
12 difficulties with your -- with your father?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You discussed with him how you
15 have been hurt by being gay? This is all before
16 this incident, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And prior to this incident you had
19 never told anyone from your family that you were
20 gay, right?
21 A That is not true.
22 Q Okay.
23 A I have a nephew and a niece.
24 Q Oh, okay.
25 A Professor Jonathan Dillion at ODU and his
00253
1 wife. And they know.
2 Q But in terms of your father, your
3 mother, any siblings, they didn't know?
4 A They knew, but they didn't know. It was
5 unspoken.
6 Q Okay.
7 A It wasn't discussed.
8 Q Now, before this incident Dr.
9 Almeleh had prescribed you with Prozac; is that
10 correct?
11 A He did.
12 Q And you last saw Dr. Almeleh two
13 days before the incident of April 25th, correct?
14 A I last saw Dr. Almeleh the morning I
15 testified on Thursday.
16 Q Talking -- I'm sorry, I am talking
17 about the last time you saw him before the
18 incident of April 25th was on April 22nd?
19 A I don't remember that day, but I'm sure
20 it's right.
21 Q Now, I believe you've testified
22 that after the incident on April 25th of '04 you
23 continued to walk on Paterson Plank Road,
24 correct?
25 A Yes, because it was part of a -- of a
00254
1 conditioning therapy that he did with me.
2 Q Who did it with you?
3 A Him, Dr. Almeleh.
4 Q So you and Dr. Almeleh walked
5 together in Secaucus?
6 A No, it's not necessarily -- necessary to
7 have, you know, him on-call for it. I had -- I
8 kept schedules and -- of my walks. And he
9 didn't want -- he was -- he is a -- he is a
10 cognitive psychiatrist and he wanted to
11 condition me to not to retreat in any way.
12 Q So your condition -- oh, I see.
13 When you say, "conditioning," you're talking
14 about behavioral conditioning?
15 A Bingo.
16 Q Okay. So part of your treatment
17 was to walk in front of -- most part of your
18 psychological treatment was to walk in front of
19 the firehouse and to condition yourself not to
20 be afraid?
21 A Absolutely.
22 Q Okay. And on one of the occasions
23 you actually stopped and looked inside the open
24 firehouse doors and observed a party that was
25 going on inside, correct?
00255
1 A I wouldn't say I stopped and looked
2 inside. I would say I was walking past. And
3 there are, once in a while, civilian parties
4 that take place in there. So this is a big
5 entrance where a big, big, huge, you know,
6 40-ton fire truck can pull out, see. So you
7 don't have to stop and look inside of it, you
8 know; it's just there.
9 Q You had indicated that one time --
10 please correct me, if I'm wrong -- you had
11 walked by and you saw that they were -- the
12 firemen were drinking Silver --
13 A They certainly were. It was on a
14 Saturday.
15 Q And you indicated you documented
16 that?
17 A I did document it.
18 Q How did you document it?
19 A I called and told Dominic DeGennaro, who
20 was on-duty that day.
21 Q And you told Mr. -- Detective
22 DeGennaro that, "I walked past the firehouse and
23 the firemen were inside and they were drinking
24 beer"?
25 A No, the firemen were outside at -- they
00256
1 were probably inside too with their wives
2 drinking beer. It was at a christening, after
3 all. But they were outside in the parking lot,
4 seven of them, most definitely drinking beer.
5 Q And --
6 A And having been through the system so
7 many times, I knew they'd say, "What kind of
8 beer?" Silver Bullets.
9 Q And you reported that to Detective
10 DeGennaro?
11 A I did.
12 Q And you indicated that in
13 addition -- there were civilian parties there,
14 as well?
15 A Seldom.
16 Q And those civilian parties were
17 like birthday parties, christening?
18 A You could rent the place, if you wanted
19 to, technically.
20 Q Now, other than Dr. Almeleh, no
21 other physician has prescribed any medication
22 for you for any symptom or condition that you
23 claim was caused by the events of April 25th,
24 correct?
25 A No, Professor Almeleh is my psychiatrist.
00257
1 Q And he -- he is the only one who
2 prescribed medication for you for -- for
3 conditions that you claim were caused by
4 April 25th, correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q Okay. Now, I want to talk to you
7 a little bit about Kohl's. All right. You left
8 Kohl's because of your treatment by coworkers at
9 Kohl's, correct? Is that true?
10 A That is true, sir.
11 Q And these were co-employees,
12 correct?
13 A Well, no, that is -- that was a situation
14 where I'm an employee. I'm not sure they were
15 employees. I don't know. They may have just
16 been temporary people.
17 Q Okay. But they were temporary
18 people employed by Kohl's, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. And those people were using
21 the term "faggot" towards you at Kohl's, right?
22 A Yeah, it was -- it first started out that
23 my -- I enjoyed that job a great deal. And the
24 manager came around; and she told me, you know,
25 the -- the store is not doing all that well.
00258
1 And maybe it changed. Maybe it's not Kohl's
2 anymore. I can't remember. But the sales
3 weren't all that well.
4 And she said, "You know, people may not
5 be exactly comfortable with you around here."
6 And I said, "Ada" -- she is
7 African-American -- "are we supposed to leave
8 because people are uncomfortable?"
9 She said, "No, it's just that there is
10 a couple of new stores opening in" -- "in around
11 Jersey City and," she said, "you know, I don't
12 think I'm going to get anywhere. And I don't
13 think you are either."
14 Then there was a gentleman who worked
15 with me in the department and lived down right
16 by Harmon Cove or whatever you call it -- not
17 that. He lived at the end of Plank Road where
18 the racket -- where the river meets. And he
19 said, "You got" -- "You got pictures in the
20 paper, you know? And things" -- "And people
21 aren't going to like that" and whatever. So
22 he's giving me off these -- these signs. So I
23 wasn't surprised.
24 And when I went in to work, they
25 started cutting these hours like to four hours
00259
1 and stuff. It was ridiculous. And then I went
2 in, and the -- the -- the -- the man who was a
3 manager who had previously been very nice to me
4 started giving me a hard time about very, very
5 picky things. We didn't really have uniforms,
6 but we had sort of a dress code. And you know,
7 he would say, "Those" -- "Those shoes aren't
8 quite" -- "They're a little too casual" and
9 things like that.
10 And then one night I went to the break
11 room because we had to punch out. And to my
12 horror, there were two guys there, one of whom
13 belonged to the third firehouse behind the
14 funeral home. And they were making fun of me
15 and -- and just carrying on this sort of
16 Saturday Night Live skits, I guess, about me.
17 And it hurt me very deeply because I thought
18 they were friends.
19 Now, at the back, where they unload
20 merchandise they have men who are very tough
21 customers, young men, but they look pretty
22 tough. Then I heard them talking about me. And
23 it was like -- it's just so -- oh, there is
24 something so awful about having somebody say it
25 behind your back, you know. It's almost -- and
00260
1 like that.
2 And so I did exactly what I was
3 entitled to do. I went to Mr. White, the
4 manager; and I told him that I -- these people
5 were just harassing me flat out, calling me
6 "faggot" and stuff, because this news had gotten
7 out. And as I said, the store was not doing
8 well. And I don't think they particularly
9 wanted my presence there.
10 So I went to see him. He was in
11 cosmetics. And I said we -- I told him that
12 they were making fun of me. I told him the
13 people and everything. So he says, "Come with
14 me." And he walked very, very fast, clip, clip,
15 clip, clip, clip, back into his office in the
16 warehouse.
17 And he said, "Who said this?" You
18 know, and he starts firing questions at me. And
19 then he said, "Do you know who she is?" And
20 that was his secretary at Kohl's, who's still
21 there, if there is still a Kohl's. I think her
22 name is Sue. "She said she is the son of the
23 fireman who is one of the ones harassing you."
24 And so he said -- I said, "Do you want
25 me just to leave now?"
00261
1 And he says, "If you leave now, I shall
2 consider it gross insubordinance."
3 So somehow I just managed to hang on in
4 there until 11:30. And I was very beat. But I
5 came up to the house and I set down at my
6 computer and I can write letters. And I looked
7 up all the hierarchy at Kohl's, which is in
8 Wisconsin. And I got right to the right person
9 with the right letter.
10 And I was quite amazed. I got a call
11 at 9:00 the next morning. And the -- and the --
12 they don't even open -- they are an hour behind
13 us. And he said, "I'm terribly sorry about
14 this" and so forth. "There is, of course" --
15 well, anyway, he said, "I just want to see what
16 we can do about this. And how can we make this
17 right?"
18 And I -- I just got set with some
19 monster people, I guess you would say. And said
20 they were monsters; I remember the word. And
21 there were a lot of monsters around. And so
22 that's it.
23 Q And you left Kohl's in June of
24 '04, correct?
25 A Yes, very carefully. So I took a tape
00262
1 recorder with me. And I went and handed in a
2 letter of resignation. And they said good-bye,
3 and I said good-bye without incident.
4 Q About six months later did your
5 attorney write to Kohl's, threatening to sue
6 them if they didn't negotiate a settlement with
7 them?
8 A I would think that's attorney privilege.
9 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
10 Honor. This case we are not suing Kohl's here.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: A little bit of
12 knowledge is a really dangerous thing.
13 MR. MULLIN: It is. It is.
14 MR. PARIS: Can we be heard at
15 sidebar?
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
17 MR. MULLIN: Maybe we should be
18 suing Kohl's.
19 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
20 discussion is held.)
21 MR. MULLIN: How is this remotely
22 relevant to this case, especially in reference
23 to settlement, which is Completely barred by the
24 Rules of Evidence?
25 MR. PARIS: This is the --
00263
1 MR. MULLIN: It's just a shocking,
2 unprofessional move.
3 MR. PARIS: This is --
4 MR. MULLIN: Now, hold on. I want
5 a -- I want a curative saying it was completely
6 inappropriate for Mr. Paris to mention this,
7 that the Rules of Evidence bar it and that any
8 issues we have with Kohl's are completely
9 unrelated to this case. The Rules of Evidence
10 bar reference to settlement in trial.
11 MR. PARIS: This has nothing to do
12 with a settlement between the parties of this
13 case, so that has nothing to do with it.
14 Number two, the document I'm
15 referring to is Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 24.
16 MR. MULLIN: We haven't moved it
17 into Evidence.
18 MR. PARIS: I understand that.
19 However, this gentleman just testified about how
20 upsetting the incident at Kohl's was to him
21 because these were people he thought were his
22 friends who were making fun of him, exactly the
23 same type of thing. They're going to make a
24 claim that he has PTSD because of what happened
25 on April 25th and I think I'm absolutely
00264
1 entitled to show some of these other things that
2 happened to him between April 25th and the time
3 he was evaluated by Dr. Bursztajn, their expert.
4 And I'm always troubled because
5 he is always looking over here and can't hear
6 what we're saying.
7 But that's the relevance of this,
8 that here -- here is a situation where he knows
9 who the people are, they're coworkers of his.
10 And then for him to give the impression that
11 they just, you know, just went away in June,
12 when six months later Kohl's is being threatened
13 by his own attorney, copy to him.
14 This all goes to his state of
15 mind at the time. How upset was he, if he is
16 saying we need to negotiate a settlement or
17 we're going to bring you into the pending
18 lawsuit.
19 MR. MULLIN: This is -- this is
20 now bordering on the absurd. This is the most
21 illogical argument I ever heard. Now, my
22 client's experience at Kohl's was fair game
23 because of the reasons Mr. Paris said, because
24 maybe the Kohl's matter is another stressor the
25 jury ought to consider. And I allowed him to go
00265
1 at unbelievable length with it and long
2 narrative. Whether or not lawyer in my
3 office -- is that Miss Smith sent that letter?
4 MR. PARIS: Copied to Mr. Carter.
5 MR. MULLIN: Whether or not -- I'm
6 sorry, copied to?
7 MR. PARIS: Mr. Carter.
8 MR. MULLIN: Whether or not a
9 lawyer sought a settlement with Kohl's doesn't
10 tell you anything about his state of mind.
11 Everybody is entitled to bring a lawsuit and
12 seek a settlement. There is nothing wrong with
13 bringing a lawsuit and seeking a settlement. A
14 settlement -- in reference to settlement is
15 barred by our Rules of Evidence; it's completely
16 inappropriate.
17 It's just really a gross
18 violation, and -- and there needs to be a strong
19 curative here, Your Honor. The jury needs to be
20 told it was completely inappropriate by Mr.
21 Paris to go into this area, that it's perfectly
22 appropriate for -- for a plaintiff to -- to
23 resolve disputes through attorneys and -- and
24 the jury should disregard this.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Just -- basically,
00266
1 we've already got all the questions on the
2 record. And I find absolutely that given the
3 rationale, which you agree with, that this was a
4 stressor just like or similar to or might be
5 similar to the stressor in regard to this case.
6 It was fair game to ask him about that. And in
7 fact, he, Plaintiff, really went on a lot longer
8 than we expect Mr. Paris was going to be
9 patient.
10 In regard to the reference to
11 settlement, it's not reference to a settlement
12 in this case, so there is nothing improper about
13 the letter, the plaintiff's exhibit, being
14 referred to. There were really no objection --
15 I will take a look at Tracey's transcript; but
16 he is the one who first said, "I think that's
17 attorney-client," and then there was an
18 objection. So I'm not going to give a strong
19 curative at all -- I am not going to give a
20 curative this was improper because I don't
21 believe that the question even in regard to that
22 settlement was improper. It's a little close to
23 some other adjectives I could think of, but it's
24 not improper to ask about that.
25 What I'm going to do is allow him
00267
1 to answer the question yes or no, but I don't
2 think that there is any rationale to go beyond
3 that. There is no --
4 MR. MULLIN: What is the question?
5 I don't know what the question is at this point.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: The question is:
7 Was there -- is, basically, did this not happen,
8 which is the information in the letter from
9 Kelly Smith. He can answer yes. He can answer
10 he doesn't know, whatever. But then there is no
11 need that I can think of to go into any detail.
12 MR. PARIS: Actually, the question
13 I was going to ask him next was: You were so
14 upset with Kohl's that, through your attorney,
15 copied to you, you threatened to sue them?
16 JUDGE CURRAN: You have already
17 asked him that. That's basically pending
18 question.
19 MR. PARIS: Well, I don't know if
20 I put it in the form of, "You were so upset."
21 JUDGE CURRAN: No, you probably
22 didn't.
23 MR. PARIS: That's what I want to
24 establish.
25 MR. MULLIN: You were so upset
00268
1 that you threatened to sue them? What does
2 threatening to sue somebody have to do with a
3 specific emotional state?
4 MR. PARIS: Well, he can answer,
5 "No." He can say, "No."
6 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I object
7 to that question. It's completely misleading
8 question for a layperson. It's completely
9 confusing. Everyone has a right to sue and even
10 right to threaten to sue, unless it's frivolous.
11 He just described a set of facts that's not
12 frivolous at all. And that should be the end of
13 it.
14 The jury has heard much too much
15 of this. They have heard enough of it. Your
16 Honor, I would ask that you direct that the
17 inquiry on this stop now. I understand you are
18 not giving a curative I request. I would ask
19 that you direct change the subject and move on
20 to something else.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: With all due
22 respect, it's a fair question, so it's fair to
23 have him answer it. If you want the question
24 repeated, you can have the question repeated.
25 Or if you think Mr. Carter can answer it, he can
00269
1 answer it. However he wants to do it.
2 It is then fair, I think, to
3 leave the lawsuit alone. But you can ask him
4 whatever questions in line with the damages
5 issue, whatever his feelings were in regard to
6 the incidents at Kohl's.
7 Because, frankly, it's a fair
8 argument that, you know, he had a right to sue,
9 whether he was upset or he wasn't. Or maybe --
10 maybe he didn't even mention it. I'm not asking
11 for any comment, Mr. Mullin. But maybe he just
12 happened to mention to Mr. Mullin what happened
13 at Kohl's and Mr. Mullin said or Miss Smith said
14 or Kelly Smith said, "You should sue." So we
15 don't know where the lawsuit litigation idea
16 came from. And with all due respect, with this
17 witness we're likely to get an answer that --
18 MR. PARIS: I am going to try to
19 do the best I can.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: -- would not be
21 proper for lots of reasons.
22 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: So you can -- you
24 can do it. Do you want to repeat the question,
25 or do you think he will remember?
00270
1 MS. SMITH: Just ask him if he can
2 answer the question.
3 MR. BEVERE: Just --
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Just one second.
5 MR. BEVERE: Sorry.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: I am going to say,
7 "Can you answer the question? It's a yes or no
8 question. Can you answer it?" You know, and he
9 can answer it or not. Then you're free to go
10 into the Kohl's incident but not anything else
11 in regard to the litigation.
12 MR. PARIS: I am going to ask one
13 more question with regard to the litigation.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Which is?
15 MR. PARIS: Which is, six months
16 after you left Kohl's in December of '04, were
17 you still so upset about what happened there
18 that you --
19 JUDGE CURRAN: No, that's the same
20 question.
21 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I am
22 going to have to put Kelly Smith on the --
23 JUDGE CURRAN: You are not going
24 to get to that point.
25 MR. MULLIN: I am going to have to
00271
1 put Kelly Smith on the stand in order to explain
2 why she waited until December 3rd, '04 to file
3 this.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: That's right.
5 That's why I'm not --
6 MR. MULLIN: I want to reserve the
7 right to call Kelly Smith to explain why her
8 schedule, her trial schedule, litigation
9 schedule caused this delay. That's what he is
10 opening the door to. I want to reserve --
11 JUDGE CURRAN: If you are going to
12 open that door, otherwise --
13 MR. PARIS: I understand.
14 MR. MULLIN: I think it's so wrong
15 to go into.
16 MR. PARIS: Only thing I would
17 like to do, if I could just take a look at the
18 Live Note for the last two questions and
19 answers. Our screen is dark right now.
20 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I was going to
21 say --
22 JUDGE CURRAN: The last time we
23 were at sidebar in regard to I said, "We will
24 just put in Attorney General's Office," when you
25 look at Live Note, "office" was in the first
00272
1 question. First question, same question in the
2 Live Notes at least were verbatim. So I don't
3 know, Mr. --
4 MR. BEVERE: I was going to say,
5 Judge, no, I had a housekeeping issue. My
6 screen was blank. I wasn't getting Live Note.
7 If before we resume we can make it happen.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: I didn't hear what
9 you said.
10 MR. BEVERE: Our Live Note went
11 out. It's just a housekeeping -- blank screen
12 in front of me, and I don't know how to fix it
13 because I am not that adept.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Do you want to let
15 the jury go for the day?
16 MR. PARIS: It's fine for me.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: No, no, we can't.
18 We have to do the question. I am going to allow
19 him to answer the question.
20 MR. PARIS: This issue is almost
21 done. It's probably no question being done, or
22 I may look at the screen and --
23 MR. MULLIN: Feel free to look at
24 my screen.
25 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
00273
1 JUDGE CURRAN: I am going to let
2 him answer the question. Do you want to let it
3 go for the day? Otherwise, I am going to ask
4 you not to talk about the litigation. You can
5 talk to him about the effect of Kohl's --
6 MR. PARIS: If I can just see the
7 last couple questions, I may be done.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
9 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
10 concluded.)
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
12 Gentlemen, I will just indicate to you while the
13 lawyers are -- Ladies and Gentlemen, while the
14 lawyers are looking I will just indicate to you,
15 as you see, this is a court reporter. You may
16 think that happens all time in court and used
17 to, but it doesn't anymore. I haven't had a
18 court reporter in this courtroom since -- twice
19 since I moved down here years and years ago.
20 What is happening is as Tracey is
21 typing there are fields to the computer I have
22 right here and to the computers that are on
23 counsel table. So if we're not certain what was
24 said or if we just want to follow it that way,
25 we can do that. So the attorneys are
00274
1 double-checking because we only have finite
2 memories and there is a disagreement as to
3 certain wording. And we're just checking what
4 they call the "live feed." Okay.
5 Mr. Mullin, while they're
6 checking there, would you be kind enough to give
7 me the Plaintiff's Exhibit number on the letter.
8 MR. MULLIN: On that letter it's
9 P-24.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: 24.
11 MR. MULLIN: P-24.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: I had 24, but
13 wasn't sure if 24 was right, thank you.
14 Accustomed to the higher numbers, 000 --
15 MR. MULLIN: Yeah.
16 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, probably I
17 have one more question on this subject.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Hold on one
19 sec.
20 Mr. Carter, you heard Mr. Paris'
21 question, did you not?
22 THE WITNESS: I did, ma'am.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: And it's a yes or
24 no question. So if you would be kind enough,
25 please, to answer it, you can answer "yes,"
00275
1 "no"; or you can answer you don't know or you
2 don't recall. It's up to you.
3 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I hope my
4 objection is noted for the record.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Noted for the
6 record.
7 BY MR. PARIS:
8 Q Mr. Carter, the events at Kohl's
9 were so upsetting to you that you had an
10 attorney write a letter to Kohl's threatening to
11 sue them, did you not?
12 THE WITNESS: Can I ask a
13 question? No?
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Right now you can
15 just answer the question, "yes," "no," you don't
16 know. It's up to you.
17 BY MR. PARIS:
18 A I don't know.
19 Q You don't know whether those
20 events were upsetting to you?
21 A I just answered I don't know. She said I
22 can say I don't know.
23 Q I just want to make it clear.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: It's a follow-up
25 question.
00276
1 Q I am trying to make clear what you
2 don't know. You don't know if the events at
3 Kohl's were upsetting to you? Do you know that
4 they were upsetting to you, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. And do you know whether
7 your attorney wrote a letter threatening to sue
8 Kohl's?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. So you know yes to those
11 two things?
12 A I do.
13 MR. PARIS: Okay. Your Honor,
14 this would be a time to -- I'm done with that
15 subject for now.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
17 Ladies and Gentlemen, we're going
18 to let you go home for the day. I -- I'm
19 worried that some of you may blow away with the
20 wind that we've been hearing out there, but we
21 will appreciate it if you will return tomorrow
22 morning at 9:00.
23 There is one other issue --
24 actually, a couple of issues. First of all, I
25 will give my standard please don't talk about
00277
1 the case among yourselves. Please don't talk
2 about the case with anyone else.
3 The other thing I will mention to
4 you -- and you may not even remember, but there
5 was a reference earlier today to a web site.
6 The reference was first, I believe, put on the
7 record by Mr. Carter; and then there were
8 questions. Do not under any circumstances even
9 consider going to that web site, please. That
10 would be highly improper. I'm not in any way
11 indicating you would; but just so that it's
12 clear, please do not.
13 And the last thing that I would
14 indicate to you -- I was going to mention this
15 tomorrow, but I think it's fair to you we try to
16 be as cognizant of your schedules as we can be
17 because we know that you may have some things
18 that are planned or you'd like to plan. I will
19 remind you that this week you will not be
20 required to sit on Wednesday.
21 Okay. And I will tell you now,
22 which I did not indicate earlier, on Thursday
23 the session will begin at 1:30 after lunch,
24 rather than at 9 in the morning. Okay. So just
25 in case you need to make some plans, you will
00278
1 not be -- need to be here from tomorrow
2 afternoon, Tuesday afternoon, until Thursday at
3 1:30.
4 Anything else?
5 MR. PARIS: No.
6 MR. BEVERE: No, Your Honor.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you very
8 much. We'll see you tomorrow. Off the record.
9 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
10 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Does counsel have
12 any need to put anything on the record?
13 Otherwise, they can close down the computers.
14 MR. MULLIN: I just want to remind
15 counsel and the Court that we have our -- we
16 have our expert coming tomorrow at.
17 MS. SMITH: 1:30.
18 MR. MULLIN: Take the stand at
19 1:30.
20 MS. SMITH: Do you know how
21 much --
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Hold on one sec.
23 MS. SMITH: Sorry.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Is that all the
25 jurors, Miss Hawks?
00279
1 MS. HAWKS: I think so. Hold on.
2 Yes.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
4 MS. HAWKS: You're welcome.
5 MS. SMITH: In order to plan, it
6 would help to know how much you have.
7 MR. PARIS: Probably, I want to
8 say, 45 minutes to an hour.
9 MR. MULLIN: Okay. So then we may
10 start deVries before we get to Bursztajn.
11 MR. PARIS: You are not going to
12 have much redirect yet?
13 MR. MULLIN: Depends on what
14 happens. This last hour of yours might require
15 five or six hours of redirect.
16 MR. PARIS: I can only hope.
17 MR. MULLIN: But it's unlikely.
18 MR. PARIS: Neil, I can only hope.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Can I just ask you
20 this? Are you going to move ahead with
21 Mr. deVries and then interrupt him? Is that
22 your plans?
23 MS. SMITH: Unless there is like
24 half-an-hour, Your Honor. If it's noon, we
25 might ask you not to start a plaintiff.
00280
1 JUDGE CURRAN: No problem. No
2 problem at all.
3 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Judge.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
5 (Whereupon, the witness is
6 excused.)
7 (Whereupon, the proceeding is
8 concluded at 4:15 p.m.)
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00281
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 I, TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, a Certified Court
4 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
5 Jersey, do hereby certify that the foregoing is
6 a true and accurate transcript of the
7 stenographic notes as taken by and before me, on
8 the date and place hereinbefore set forth.
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18 ________________________________
19 TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, C.C.R.
20 LICENSE NO. XIO1983
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