00001
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION - HUDSON COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. HUD-L-3520-04
PETER deVRIES and TIMOTHY
3 CARTER
TRANSCRIPT
4 OF PROCEEDING
Plaintiffs,
5 TRIAL DAY 11
Vs.
6
THE TOWN OF SECAUCUS,
7 Defendant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
8
HUDSON COUNTY COURTHOUSE
9 595 Newark Avenue
Jersey City, New Jersey 07306
10 Wednesday, May 28, 2008
Commencing 9:40 a.m.
11
B E F O R E:
12 HONORABLE BARBARA A. CURRAN
13 TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, CSR
LICENSE NO. XIO1983
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 SCHULMAN, WIEGMANN & ASSOCIATES
21 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
22 216 STELTON ROAD
23 SUITE C-1
24 PISCATAWAY, NEW JERSEY 08854
25 (732) - 752 - 7800
00002
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2
3 SMITH MULLIN, ESQS.
4 Attorneys for the Plaintiffs
5 240 Claremont Avenue
6 Montclair, New Jersey 07042
7 BY: NEIL MULLIN, ESQ.
8 NANCY ERIKA SMITH, ESQ.
9
10 PIRO, ZINNA, CIFELLI, PARIS & GENITEMPO, ESQS.
11 Attorneys for the Defendants
12 360 Passaic Avenue
13 Nutley, New Jersey 07110
14 BY: DANIEL R. BEVERE, ESQ.
15 DAVID M. PARIS, ESQ.
16
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25
00003
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS DIRECT VOIR CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
3 DIRE
4 ANTHONY IACONO
5 By: Mr. Bevere 30 108, 124
6 By: Mr. Mullin 69 115, 125
7 I N D E X
8 WITNESS DIRECT VOIR CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
9 DIRE
10 DETECTIVE SERGEANT DOMINIC DEGENNARO.
11 By: Mr. Bevere 135 190, 198
12 By: Mr. Mullin 179 195
13 I N D E X
14 WITNESS DIRECT VOIR CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
15 DIRE
16 RAYMOND CIECIUCH
17 By: Mr. Bevere 202
18 BY: Mr. Mullin 211
19 I N D E X
20
21 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS JURY Q'S
22 FOLLOW-UP
23 DENNIS ELWELL
24 By: Mr. Bevere 222 255
25 By: Mr. Mullin 245 263, 266
00004
1 E X H I B I T S
2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
3 C-9 Index card with two Jury questions 262
4
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00005
1 JUDGE CURRAN: We will go on the
2 record, please.
3 MR. PARIS: Thank you. Your
4 Honor --
5 COURT CLERK: On the record.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. I'll --
7 one quick second. I will note for the record
8 that the jury -- we are waiting on the jury
9 members. We have five, I believe. And counsel
10 is in court. Mr. -- six.
11 Mr. Paris.
12 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, we had
13 mentioned at the time that the plaintiff had
14 closed their case that we wanted to make some
15 motion before the Court. And we had
16 Dr. Goldwaser lined up for last Thursday, so we
17 proceeded with at least part of his testimony at
18 that time. Yesterday we reconvened and we had
19 the jury awaiting at 9:00, so we proceeded with
20 witnesses at that point in time.
21 MS. HAWKS: Your Honor.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
23 MS. HAWKS: Another one.
24 (Whereupon, a juror enters the
25 courtroom.)
00006
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris, I hate
2 to ask you, could you be kind enough to just
3 move that screen a little, so at least I can see
4 the back door for right now?
5 MR. PARIS: I'm sorry.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: That's fine.
7 That's fine. That's fine. Just in case.
8 Is that seven, Miss Castelli, you
9 have now?
10 COURT CLERK: That's eight.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Eight? Great.
12 I'm sorry, Mr. Paris.
13 MR. PARIS: Not at all. At this
14 point the jury is coming in at 9:30. We have a
15 witness. I know we don't want to keep the
16 jurors waiting around.
17 (Whereupon, a juror enters the
18 courtroom.)
19 MS. HAWKS: We are waiting for one
20 more.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
22 MS. HAWKS: You're welcome.
23 MR. PARIS: We argued motions
24 which, you know, obviously, in a case like this
25 it takes some period of time. However, I would
00007
1 appreciate the Court scheduling at this -- at
2 this point in time -- I don't mean right at this
3 moment but scheduling at this moment when we can
4 argue those motions, whether it's at the end of
5 the day today, whether it's first thing tomorrow
6 morning and we ask the jury to come in later.
7 But we really need to have those motions argued
8 as expeditiously as we possibly can.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Thank you.
10 Mr. Mullin.
11 MR. MULLIN: Well, I certainly
12 think Mr. Paris is within his rights to ask
13 that. I don't have any problem arguing motions
14 tomorrow morning. Probably as a -- before I do
15 it, because I rested subject to moving in the
16 evidence and getting a stipulation about certain
17 things, but I think they may have completed. So
18 I would like to move in the rest of the evidence
19 tomorrow morning, Your Honor, and put the
20 stipulation on the record about certain
21 positions held by certain people. Then I think
22 it's fine if Mr. Paris or Bevere argue motions.
23 MR. PARIS: That would be fine,
24 Your Honor.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: We will do that. I
00008
1 would just ask both sides -- I mean, I'm
2 guessing that the plaintiffs can anticipate at
3 least some of the defense motions. If there are
4 any cases on which you're going to rely, if you
5 will please give me at the very least a site
6 today so that I can read those.
7 MR. MULLIN: Absolutely. We can
8 do that at the end of the day, Your Honor.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
10 MS. SMITH: Your Honor, I have a
11 couple things. I wonder if the witness can step
12 out, please.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
14 MS. SMITH: Not for -- this I can
15 just talk about. Your Honor, Rule 425 -- colon
16 25-7 provides that at trial and prior to opening
17 statements both sides should provide proposed
18 jury instructions. Plaintiff did that. I --
19 last Thursday we asked defendants in front of
20 Your Honor for their proposed jury instructions.
21 I e-mailed them last night asking for their
22 proposed jury instructions. I ask Your Honor to
23 tell them to comply with the rule and e-mail us
24 today --
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Come on in.
00009
1 (Whereupon, a juror enters the
2 courtroom.)
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning.
4 JUROR: Good morning.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, Miss
6 Hawks.
7 MS. HAWKS: You're welcome.
8 MS. SMITH: -- their jury
9 instructions, so that we can be working on them,
10 as I assume they are looking at and working on
11 ours.
12 Second, I have had a chance to
13 review the transcript, Your Honor; and I have
14 made many, many notes about the completely
15 improper leading by Mr. Bevere. Mr. --
16 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sorry, I didn't
17 hear the noun.
18 MS. SMITH: About the completely
19 improper leading by Mr. --
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Leading. Leading.
21 MS. SMITH: Yes. Can I shut this
22 off? I can't hear either.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
24 MS. SMITH: It's -- it's not
25 enough to make us stand up in front of the jury
00010
1 constantly and object to leading --
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Excuse me. It
3 might be better if Mr. Bevere were in here.
4 MR. PARIS: He is. He is
5 obtaining --
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Oh, he is hiding
7 behind the screen.
8 Sorry, Mr. Bevere. Thank you.
9 MS. SMITH: I will wait for him,
10 Your Honor.
11 MR. BEVERE: It's all right,
12 Judge.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: No, no, as long as
14 you can hear this, you can continue.
15 MR. BEVERE: I can hear it.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
17 MS. SMITH: It's not enough that
18 we should have to stand up repeatedly in front
19 of this jury and interrupt testimony. Once the
20 leading question is said, the witness knows what
21 the answer is and the jury has heard what --
22 that Mr. Bevere is testifying.
23 The most outrageous examples are
24 things like, "Is it a regular practice and
25 policy" or, "Is it a regular procedure of your
00011
1 Department to prepare reports?" I have sites to
2 the record, if you want them, Your Honor. Is it
3 typical in the Detectives Bureau that detectives
4 do X, Y and Z, work together; or, "Is it typical
5 that at 3:15 Sunday there would be no
6 detectives," as opposed to, "Why did you get a
7 call at home?" Is it fair to say you -- you did
8 anymore -- you spoke to anyone -- anyone you
9 spoke to would be in your reports?
10 Most of the questions are
11 proceeded with, "Is it typical," "Is it fair to
12 say?" He testifies; and then the witness says
13 something like, "Absolutely" or, "Yes."
14 "Whenever you're interviewing
15 someone who you believe might have criminal
16 responsibility for an incident, do you provide
17 them with this form and make them sign it?"
18 That's page 92:10.
19 "Whenever you're interviewing
20 someone who you believe might have criminal
21 responsibility, do you advise that person prior
22 to interviewing them of their right to counsel
23 and their right to remain silent?" Page 92:16.
24 From somebody who says we have to
25 have a police practices expert.
00012
1 "Prior to person being arrested
2 and charged or arrested are they free to leave
3 at any time?" Page 94:18.
4 MR. MULLIN: Which transcript is
5 this?
6 MS. SMITH: This is the transcript
7 from yesterday, trial day 10. "Would that
8 be" -- "Would that include being in the middle
9 of a statement?" He is -- he is getting the
10 witness to say in the middle of a statement
11 somebody can leave based on their Constitutional
12 rights.
13 From somebody who says we need a
14 police practices expert to ask, "Did you search
15 their cars for shell casings or guns?" And
16 that -- and another question right after that.
17 When the form refers to Constitutional rights,
18 the form is being read because the witness says
19 he has absolutely no independent recollection.
20 Then Mr. Bevere says, "And that would be the
21 right to remain silent and the right to
22 counsel?" After he gets a witness to read
23 because he has absolutely no recollection, then
24 he asks them questions based on his
25 recollection. That happens many times.
00013
1 And then at some point yesterday
2 Mr. Bevere starts referring to, I guess, the
3 Police Department or maybe the Town as "we."
4 That starts at page 127. "Under the
5 circumstances do we do that?" This is -- this
6 is a whole completely inappropriate area. "Was
7 it the policy to video or audio?" "Under what
8 circumstances do we do that?" This is all at
9 page 131. "Well, why is it the policy?" Now,
10 the word "policy" never came out of that
11 witness' mouth ever. "Why is it the policy
12 currently that we audio and video suspects'
13 statements?"
14 Goes on to page 132. "Is it the
15 policy of the Department to audio or videotape
16 witnesses' or victims' statements?" After he
17 says no recollection -- this is after this
18 witness has no recollection whatsoever.
19 We ask that Your Honor, because
20 of that next statement -- because he said he had
21 no recollection whatsoever, we ask that the
22 following statements be stricken. And Your
23 Honor appropriately said, "Well, I don't want to
24 emphasize it in front of the jury." But for
25 purposes of the record, Your Honor, we would
00014
1 like his answers after he says -- on page 132 to
2 be stricken.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Excuse me. I just
4 want to mark my transcript.
5 MS. SMITH: Sure, absolutely, Your
6 Honor.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: So you're asking
8 that page 132, line?
9 MS. SMITH: Page 132.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Line?
11 MS. SMITH: It really is at page
12 133, line 4. This is after -- pages before that
13 he says he has no recollection whatsoever. And
14 then Mr. Bevere asks at line --
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Do you have a
16 recollection?
17 MS. SMITH: Yes, yeah. And he --
18 then, all of a sudden he has one, after he has
19 read most of his report. And Your Honor did --
20 we did stop it; but we didn't strike it because
21 Your Honor didn't want to emphasize it in front
22 of the jury, which I appreciate. But for
23 purposes of the record it should be stricken.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Down to?
25 MS. SMITH: Down to page -- to
00015
1 line 15, where we got the objection.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. That's
3 exactly where I got it, okay.
4 MS. SMITH: Yes.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. --
6 MR. PARIS: You're asking for four
7 through 15.
8 MS. SMITH: Four through 15.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Four through 15.
10 MS. SMITH: Now, the leading, page
11 140, "Well, then let me ask you, did he" -- "Do
12 you have any recollection as to whether or not
13 he indicated to you that he had any knowledge of
14 who was making any antigay remarks or threats
15 that night?" This is, again, somebody who
16 doesn't have a recollection.
17 "Were you able to give any
18 information to" -- this is page 151, Your Honor.
19 "Were they able to give you any information to
20 which you were able to conclude who have made
21 any threats to the plaintiffs in the early
22 morning hours of April 25th, 2004?"
23 We only need to go page by page,
24 Your Honor. The answers are, "Yes," "No,"
25 "Yes," "No," "Yes," "No" because Mr. Bevere is
00016
1 testifying. The question -- what did you learn?
2 What did you discern from those statements?
3 MR. BEVERE: But Judge, I couldn't
4 ask those questions because that would require
5 the witness to read from the statement, which
6 Your Honor said I couldn't do.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: No, no, no, no, the
8 separate issue about leading. That's separate
9 issue. That -- just let me finish with the
10 plaintiff.
11 MR. BEVERE: Sure.
12 COURT CLERK: Go off the record?
13 JUDGE CURRAN: No, thank you.
14 Anything else, Miss Smith?
15 MS. SMITH: I have other examples,
16 Your Honor. I -- I -- what -- really my point
17 is the damage is done with the witnesses
18 yesterday. I would ask that you please instruct
19 Mr. Bevere that it's inappropriate to lead his
20 witnesses and that we do something so that we
21 don't have to stand up every two minutes in
22 front of the jury.
23 And as I said, once he does it,
24 the witness is coached and the jury has heard
25 it. The question should be who, what, where,
00017
1 why and when on direct.
2 And often Mr. Bevere does a
3 little introduction, "Basically what I want",
4 What I understand is"; and then he asks a
5 question. I would like not to have
6 introductions to his questions on direct. I
7 would just like him to ask who, what, why, where
8 and when questions; and then we are not put in
9 the awful position of having to object
10 repeatedly and have it already out there in the
11 record.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
13 MR. BEVERE: All right. Judge,
14 first of all, with regard to -- to issues of
15 reports, on foundation questions with regard to
16 reports, is it the regular course of the Police
17 Department's practice to prepare these reports
18 and was this report prepared in regular course
19 of the Police Departments, those are -- those
20 are basic foundation questions, which my
21 understanding -- and maybe I'm wrong because --
22 I am allowed to lead on those basic foundation
23 questions. It is on -- so let me leave it at
24 that without opening up any other doors.
25 As far as leading witnesses, you
00018
1 know, Judge, I asked Detective Reinke if he had
2 a recollection of what the person who gave the
3 statement said to him without reviewing and
4 looking at the statement. He said no, so he'd
5 look at the statement. And the question that
6 I -- and the questions that I posed to him, so
7 that we wouldn't run afoul of him reading from
8 the statement, was, "Did you learn anything that
9 would have indicated to you who did or said what
10 that evening?" And that was the purpose of my
11 questions.
12 If I asked him, "What did you
13 learn from the witness," he would have had to
14 have told us what the witness said to him, which
15 would have run afoul of the objection, which,
16 obviously, I disagreed with, that he could not
17 tell us what the witness said to him.
18 What did you learn from him?
19 Well, I learned that she was
20 inside the building while this event was
21 allegedly happening, and that's why she didn't
22 hear anything.
23 And that's the kind of stuff
24 that, based upon my understanding of Your
25 Honor's ruling, I wasn't supposed to ask. I was
00019
1 supposed to limit my question to what was the
2 effect of the statement on the officer's state
3 of mind. In other words, did it give him --
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. After we
5 were at sidebar that was true. But then that's
6 an easy question, what was the effect on you?
7 What did you do? Did you do anything? That
8 kind of thing, not did you do X, Y and Z?
9 That's part of the problem -- that is the
10 problem in regard to that specific. You could
11 say to the -- to the witness, to use the
12 example, which I think is a reference from after
13 we left sidebar, "Did you do anything as a
14 result" or -- or something of that nature. You
15 can't say, "Did you do this, and then did you do
16 that because it is a policy within the
17 department?" Those were the kind of questions
18 that were being asked.
19 I have to tell you honestly, this
20 is not a -- a personal criticism in -- in any
21 way, certainly not on my part and I'm sure not
22 on Miss Smith's part. But yesterday I spent a
23 lot of my time making notes because I also don't
24 like to -- I'm very respectful of trial
25 strategy, and also I'm respectful of both sides.
00020
1 Sometimes people for legitimate reasons let
2 things go because they -- not just because they
3 don't want to stand up. That's a fair argument;
4 I think everybody is faced with that. But
5 sometimes they want to let things go. Sometimes
6 maybe something opens it up or whatever. So I
7 am -- I try to be very respectful of people's
8 trial strategies.
9 But in fairness, Mr. Bevere, I
10 even had made notes about, for example -- easy
11 example, you said the word "we." It surprised
12 me the first time that you used it. I thought
13 it was inadvertent, but then you did use it
14 later on. That's just not proper.
15 MR. BEVERE: I won't do that
16 judge. Quite frankly --
17 JUDGE CURRAN: That's easy.
18 MR. BEVERE: -- until Miss Smith
19 brought it up I didn't even recall that I did
20 it.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sure. If you
22 don't --
23 MR. BEVERE: I won't do it.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: If you look through
25 the transcript, there are numerous -- and I have
00021
1 just picked up the -- the transcript. But just
2 look at my own notes, there are numerous places
3 where -- you know, the easiest way, as I said
4 the other day, that they start out, I guess,
5 teaching lawyers is a leading question is one
6 that's answered yes or no. Now, that's not
7 always true.
8 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I think
9 that's --
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Right, you -- you
11 don't agree with that.
12 MR. BEVERE: An
13 oversimplification.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: As an
15 oversimplification.
16 MR. BEVERE: A leading question is
17 one when I suggest a answer to the witness.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: That's classic
19 definition. But when you look at these
20 questions, the answer is absolutely suggested.
21 There is -- may I suggest that you just look
22 through yesterday's transcript? And I think
23 that you will certainly not agree -- and you
24 probably shouldn't -- that you were deliberately
25 leading. I am not even saying you were
00022
1 deliberately leading. But frankly, if you look
2 through this transcript, I think you will find
3 not just isolated questions but page after page
4 where you absolutely suggested the answer.
5 It -- it's -- as I said, it's
6 oversimplification to say that the answer is yes
7 or no because that's obviously not always true.
8 But if you look at the questions, you basically
9 talk about and is it the policy to do such and
10 such because such and such; and then the witness
11 says, "Yes." That's a classic leading question.
12 So I think today I would really ask --
13 MR. BEVERE: I will, Judge.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: -- for everybody's
15 sake. Nobody wants to, you know, have this case
16 retried for things that we all could have
17 avoided. I would appreciate it if you would
18 absolutely not lead.
19 In regard to the jury charges,
20 Mr. Paris, did you want to answer that?
21 MR. PARIS: Yeah, I did, Your
22 Honor. Number one, when we began this trial on
23 the -- the actual on the trial date, based upon
24 Judge Gallipoli's order, we filed a motion for
25 summary judgment. And how the case was going to
00023
1 be tried was dictated, I think, largely at the
2 time that those motions were ruled on. And I'm
3 trying to remember what the date was. Now it
4 seems like a long time ago. So that was one
5 issue.
6 Number two -- and we had
7 indicated in our pretrial submission that we
8 would submit a jury charge at the appropriate
9 time, when evidence had come in, et cetera. Now
10 we are trying to make a motion to dismiss. Now
11 the plaintiff has rested. I don't think it's
12 inappropriate for us to be preparing a jury
13 charge after the motions to dismiss have been
14 heard, if the jury charge is required at that
15 point in time.
16 When we had sought a precharge
17 based on question number 39, the jury
18 questionnaire, we had submitted a lengthy -- I
19 think it was about three-page -- proposed
20 precharge which referenced the statute. And in
21 that it discussed color of law, it discussed
22 policy practice procedure, et cetera, et cetera.
23 At that point in time I believe Mr. Bevere had
24 indicated that that was essentially a request to
25 charge under those statutes.
00024
1 I have been looking over that.
2 And -- and frankly, I've been here during the
3 day. And you know, I -- I certainly -- I don't
4 think it's necessary, but I think I can
5 certainly account for my whereabouts when I'm
6 not here. But the fact is I think that as this
7 case is proceeded and as the plaintiff has now
8 rested, that request -- that request should be
9 modified and I think it should be fleshed out in
10 the event that it's going to proceed.
11 So I -- I clearly, we're going to
12 present a request to charge. At the same time,
13 the plaintiffs' initial request to charge was --
14 was prepared before the motions for summary
15 judgment were argued. Basically, it's an LAD
16 charge. I'm not sure that that's anymore
17 illustrative or helpful right now than having no
18 charge at all right now. But we'll certainly
19 abide by the Court's scheduling issues, when we
20 intend to have a charge conference, et cetera.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. I don't
22 think, in fairness, that it's unfair to request
23 under best practices -- and I understand that
24 sometimes that wastes time because there are
25 motions. But under best practices we should
00025
1 have had the jury charges. I didn't, frankly,
2 have any problem because I knew that there were
3 significant dispositive motions that had to be
4 heard first way back in April. But then we
5 really should have had the charge from the
6 defense.
7 I'm sure that the plaintiffs have
8 been busy doing other things. And I'm sure you
9 have been busy doing other things. But we are
10 now at the point where we need those charges.
11 We will do the motions tomorrow. I would ask at
12 the very least -- I mean, frankly, I'm not in
13 any way questioning anybody's work habits.
14 Everybody on this case is working extremely
15 hard. But I don't think it's unreasonable to
16 ask that the jury charges, by number even, that
17 the jury charges be a list be faxed to the
18 plaintiff and to the Court by noon on Friday.
19 MR. PARIS: That's fine.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: That gives
21 everybody the opportunity. And then I will say
22 that by Monday morning, when everybody comes in,
23 any charges that you do not want as standard,
24 any charges you want to change or any new
25 charges or crafted charges or however you want
00026
1 to phrase them, copies should be brought for
2 your adversary and the Court and/or faxed,
3 depending on how you work, and/or faxed or
4 e-mail -- I always forget the e-mail.
5 You know, for instance, if you
6 are working on them on Sunday afternoon -- and
7 I'm not saying you should; but if you are and
8 you want to e-mail them or can e-mail them to
9 your adversary and to the Court, I think that
10 would be in everybody's best interests and we
11 are not making 14 copies and killing trees and
12 we can all get a head start on it. But
13 certainly, the list by number.
14 And I -- I don't need to tell any
15 of you -- I'm sure you are, you know, very
16 experienced; but put in everything you can
17 possibly think you want. We will take them out,
18 rather than doing it the other way.
19 MR. PARIS: Okay.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: You don't have to
21 honestly say, "Well, this list, I'm not sure we
22 are really going to want this." Put it in, take
23 it out.
24 MR. PARIS: Beautiful, thank you.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes, let me just
00027
1 ask Miss Smith. Any other issues?
2 MS. SMITH: Just, Your Honor, I
3 don't think that the -- the Constitution has
4 a -- we -- we, as you know, argued that the LAD
5 is the law that -- that applies to a
6 Constitutional discrimination claim. And our
7 jury charges have footnotes, as required by Rule
8 4:25-7. The precharge submitted by Defendants'
9 does not site any law, except the statute,
10 itself. So I would just ask that -- the number
11 ones we are going to probably -- are easy the
12 ones. I really need to look at the substantive
13 one.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Exactly.
15 MS. SMITH: And I would -- do what
16 the law requires and give us the legal authority
17 what they say the charge should be. Thank you,
18 Your Honor.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
20 As to the defense, Mr. Paris.
21 MR. PARIS: Pardon me?
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Do you have any
23 issues that you want to put on the record?
24 MR. PARIS: No.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere?
00028
1 MR. BEVERE: No, Judge.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: All right. We will
3 bring out the jury.
4 MR. PARIS: And Your Honor, just
5 for scheduling purposes, if we are going to hear
6 the -- Your Honor is going to hear motions, that
7 would be at 9, 9:30 tomorrow morning?
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Right.
9 MR. PARIS: And the jury would be
10 brought in?
11 JUDGE CURRAN: We will bring the
12 jury back by 10:30. We can talk about that as
13 we get closer to the end of the day. If you
14 want to check with some of your witnesses. For
15 instance, if a witness can only come in at
16 10:30, we will bring them back at 10:30, that
17 kind of thing.
18 MS. SMITH: Your Honor, Neil ran
19 really quickly to the men's room but --
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
21 MS. SMITH: -- we have no
22 objection to bringing the jury in while we wait.
23 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, can I move
24 the screen up now?
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Surely.
00029
1 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
2 off the record.)
3 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
4 into the courtroom.)
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning. Back
6 on the record, please.
7 COURT CLERK: Back on the record.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Back on the record.
9 We appreciate the jury's patience while we
10 worked out issues.
11 We will now continue with the
12 defense case. Mr. Bevere.
13 MR. BEVERE: Thank you, Your
14 Honor. I will call Mr. Anthony Iacono to the
15 stand.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
17 MS. HAWKS: Raise your right hand.
18 Place your left hand on the Bible.
19 A N T H O N Y I A C O N O is duly sworn by a
20 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey
21 And testifies under oath as follows:
22 MS. HAWKS: For the record, please
23 state your full name and spell your last name,
24 please.
25 THE WITNESS: Anthony Iacono,
00030
1 I-a-c-o-n-o.
2 MS. HAWKS: Thank you.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir.
4 Please move a little closer to the microphone.
5 Thank you.
6 You're under oath. All your
7 testimony must be truthful and accurate to the
8 best of your ability. Do you understand?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir.
11 Please give us your address for the record.
12 THE WITNESS: 710 4th Street,
13 Lyndhurst, New Jersey.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
15 Your witness, Mr. Bevere.
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
17 Q Good morning, Mr. Iacono. Where
18 are you currently employed?
19 A I am the municipal administrator in
20 Paramus, New Jersey.
21 Q And how long have you held that
22 position?
23 A Since September of 2007.
24 Q And prior to being the
25 administrator in Paramus what position, if any,
00031
1 did you hold?
2 A I was the municipal administrator of
3 Secaucus, New Jersey for approximately 12 years.
4 Q And what years would those have
5 encompassed?
6 A 1996 to September of 2007.
7 Q Can you give us the brief benefit
8 of your educational background?
9 A I have a Masters Degree in Public
10 Administration -- Public Administration from
11 Rutgers, New Jersey. I have a New Jersey State
12 certification in -- I'm a New Jersey State
13 certified municipal finance officer. I am a
14 State certified EEO officer. I also have a
15 state license as a consumer affairs officer.
16 Q Can you explain to us the three
17 certifications that you have and what they're
18 for?
19 A As a CMFO, which is a certified municipal
20 finance officer, I have a state license
21 specifically on municipal -- it's basically a
22 license on municipal budgets.
23 As a consumer affairs officer I am
24 licensed to handle consumer affairs complaints
25 as they come in through the borough.
00032
1 And as an EEO officer -- the Town of
2 Secaucus is an EEO employer, which means that
3 we're an equal employee -- equal employee
4 opportunity.
5 Q And how long have you held those
6 certifications?
7 A Oh, probably close to 18 years.
8 Q For all of them?
9 A A good portion of it, yes.
10 Q Specifically with regard to the
11 EEO certification, how long have you held that?
12 A Probably 14 years.
13 Q Prior to working in Secaucus did
14 you work as an administrator for any other
15 towns?
16 A Yes, I was the -- prior to Secaucus I was
17 the administrator of Union City, New Jersey.
18 Held that position as the administrator for
19 approximately five years. And prior to Union
20 City I was the administrator for Weehawken, New
21 Jersey.
22 Q I want to step back to something
23 you said earlier about a consumer affairs
24 complaint. Can you explain to us what that's
25 about?
00033
1 A Sure. If a member of the general public
2 lodges a complaint, usually it's -- it's retail.
3 It could be -- it's -- it's a consumer. It
4 could be a product. They can lodge a complaint
5 against the retailer. It could be a store. It
6 could be a car dealership. We review the
7 complaint and assure that the retailer is in
8 conformance with the law.
9 Q While you were working in
10 Secaucus, what, if any, other positions did you
11 hold aside from Town Administrator?
12 A I served as the vice chairman of the
13 Municipal Utility Authority. I -- I was the
14 vice chairman and -- and a commissioner on the
15 Municipal Utility Authority for approximately
16 eight years. Excuse me.
17 I served on the Board of Health. I was
18 the vice president of the Board of Health for
19 approximately four years.
20 I served on the Secaucus volunteer Fire
21 Department as a member of the Volunteer Fire
22 Department for approximately eight years.
23 Q Which engine company?
24 A Engine Company Number 3.
25 Q Any other positions?
00034
1 A I don't think I'm missing any.
2 Q Do you currently teach?
3 A Yes, presently --
4 Q Where do you teach, and what do
5 you teach?
6 A I'm sorry. I'm presently an adjunct
7 professor at Kean University. I am a member of
8 the Public Administration Department.
9 Q And just to give us the benefit,
10 what is public administration?
11 A Public administration is -- is similar to
12 business administration, where you take care of
13 the day-to-day operations; but in this case it's
14 for public sector. And whereas the
15 administrator is similar to a CEO of a business,
16 he is the CEO of the community.
17 Q And in the -- in the time that you
18 worked for the Town of Secaucus, if you can just
19 give us a general description of what your
20 duties were as Township administrator?
21 A The administrator basically is the person
22 that takes the working of the community. There
23 is approximately 200 employees in Secaucus.
24 Those 200 employees make up approximately nine
25 departments. Each department has a department
00035
1 head. The department head reports to me. I
2 report to the Mayor and six council people. The
3 administrator oversees the day-to-day operations
4 of the community.
5 Q Now, in the -- you also testified
6 earlier that you were the EEO compliance
7 officer. Tell us about what your duties and
8 responsibilities were as the Town of Secaucus'
9 EEO compliance officer.
10 A To ensure that Secaucus is in conformance
11 with the law as it -- as it addresses providing
12 equal opportunity, as it -- there is State
13 statutes that the municipality would have to
14 follow. And as the EEO officer primary
15 responsibility is to ensure that the Township or
16 the Town of Secaucus is in compliance, as well
17 as I would be the person directed to receive
18 complaints or to address complaints.
19 Q Complaints in what regard?
20 A It could be -- it could be a complaint
21 within the Borough of -- of Secaucus within
22 employees. It also could be in regards to a
23 complaint from -- from residents outside of the
24 working force.
25 Q While you were the administrator
00036
1 for the Town of Secaucus did the Town of
2 Secaucus have a written workplace harassment and
3 discrimination policy?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And while you were the
6 administrator for the Town of Secaucus did the
7 Town of Secaucus provide harassment,
8 discrimination training to employees?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Can you tell us about these
11 policies and training, please?
12 A Well, periodically we would call in
13 outside professionals to come in; and it would
14 be a requirement where the employees would sit
15 through anywhere from like an hour to a
16 three-hour presentation on particular topics.
17 That would include sexual harassment, would
18 include discrimination, all of the -- all of the
19 titles and subjects that would fall under the
20 EEO.
21 Q And what was the Town's policy
22 with regard to who received this training?
23 A All -- all paid employees, full-time
24 employees were required to attend classes
25 periodically. In some cases it was once a year.
00037
1 In some cases it was once every two years.
2 Q Were Township volunteers required
3 prior to April 25th, 2004 to attend harassment,
4 discrimination training?
5 A No.
6 Q Do you have an understanding as to
7 why that was the case?
8 A And again, I would -- I would be -- it
9 was probably a practice that started years prior
10 to myself being the administrator. Volunteers
11 are usually members of the community that are
12 giving up their own personal time to attend a --
13 a particular subject, whether it's a volunteer
14 coach, in this case a volunteer firefighter.
15 And I guess over the years it would probably be
16 considered too taxing to ask those volunteers to
17 give up additional time and commitments. But
18 that was the practice prior to me -- myself
19 being the administrator.
20 Q If a volunteer was also a Township
21 employee, would that individual receive training
22 through their job as a full-time employee?
23 A If the volunteer was a full-time
24 employee, he would be subject to the requirement
25 of -- of training as a full-time employee.
00038
1 Q And tell us about -- little bit
2 more about your responsibilities as EEO
3 compliance officer in regard to receiving
4 complaints and dealing with complaints.
5 A If a complaint is lodged, certainly, it
6 would be considered a review/investigation. It
7 would be fact-finding. You would take the
8 information based on the -- the alleged offense.
9 A review would be made. If there was
10 substantial evidence to proceed with a full
11 investigation and possibly take a course of
12 action, if there was some sort of remedy that
13 would be required.
14 Q Couple of questions. With regard
15 to the Volunteer Fire Department, does the
16 Township have a code or an ordinance that
17 governs the Volunteer Fire Department?
18 A The Town Code, which is the bylaws of the
19 community, which was basically written at the
20 inception of Secaucus, has a code; and the Town
21 Code does address aspects of the Volunteer Fire
22 Department.
23 Q As you are sitting here do you
24 know whether the code applicable to the Fire
25 Department has standards of conduct that
00039
1 firefighters are required --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- to be maintained?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Do you have a general
6 understanding of what those are?
7 A In a very brief summary, would be good
8 moral character.
9 Q Do you know whether or not the
10 Fire Department Code provides remedies that the
11 Fire Department or the Town can take against the
12 firefighter who doesn't comply or meet those
13 requirements?
14 A Yeah, there is policies and procedures in
15 place as per the code. And it actually gives
16 the direction of the workings of the Fire
17 Department within the Fire Department.
18 Q Without looking at the code would
19 you know what those procedures were?
20 A I think all firefighters report to their
21 and are under the jurisdiction of their offices
22 within their own personal company. From that
23 level it goes to the department chiefs. So the
24 department chiefs ultimately have the
25 responsibility over all firefighters, but there
00040
1 is one other level between a firefighter in a
2 company that reports to a company officer.
3 Q I want to talk specifically about
4 the Secaucus Fire Department. In 2004 what was
5 the general makeup of the Secaucus Fire
6 Department insofar as companies and functions?
7 A Probably approximately 90 volunteers from
8 the community of Secaucus with a makeup of five
9 different fire companies.
10 Q Do you know what the fire
11 companies were?
12 A Yeah, we had Engine 3, which I was a
13 member of. There was Washington Hook and
14 Ladder. There was the 7th Street Ladder
15 Company. There was Engine 4. Then there was
16 Rescue and Engine 2.
17 Q Where was Rescue and Engine 2
18 located?
19 A Rescue and Engine 2 are on the what I
20 would consider the north end of -- of Secaucus,
21 the very north end of Secaucus.
22 Q The -- what -- what were the --
23 what were the functions of the various
24 companies, if -- do you understand my question?
25 A Yeah, well, basically, it's the -- the
00041
1 definition of the makeup of the Fire Department,
2 which is composed of the five companies. If
3 you're a ladder truck, primary responsibility --
4 primary responsibility when you are addressing
5 or attending a fire call is to provide ladder
6 help. If you are an engine company, you're
7 providing water supply. If you're a rescue,
8 rescue would be responsible for the actual
9 breach of a building, a car. I believe I
10 covered the makeup of ladder, engine and rescue.
11 Q So did the -- the -- the North End
12 Company you referred to earlier, what would
13 their function have been?
14 A The North End Company actually has to
15 two, two bays. A bay is basically a garage.
16 Consists of two different types of trucks. One
17 truck is the rescue truck. Best describe a
18 rescue truck is an oversized ambulance. It
19 doesn't necessarily have water or ladder on that
20 truck, but it does have an overabundance of
21 tools. And it also is a passenger vehicle where
22 it can get firefighters to a scene to perform a
23 duty. They also have an engine truck, which is
24 a water supply truck; and that's Engine 2.
25 Q Now, as the Township administrator
00042
1 did you have any direct responsibility over
2 volunteer firefighters?
3 A None at all.
4 Q And with regard to -- well, what,
5 if any, responsibility did you, as Township
6 administrator, have with regard to the Police
7 Department?
8 A The -- the Police Department, the
9 department, itself, reports directly to the
10 Chief. The Chief is responsible for the
11 day-to-day operations of the making up of the
12 Police Department; and he is the -- he is
13 generally responsible to carry out the law and
14 to carry out the laws within the Township of
15 Secaucus. The chief and I work together
16 strictly on the administrative end of it, which
17 would be consistent -- consisted of work on a
18 police budget. But the day-to-day
19 responsibilities certainly fall within the
20 confines of a State statute that the police have
21 a -- a duty to carry out.
22 Q As a Township administrator did
23 you have any responsibility with regard to law
24 enforcement?
25 A None at all.
00043
1 Q Mr. Iacono, are you aware of an
2 incident that occurred in the early morning
3 hours of April 25th, 2004 at the North End
4 Firehouse?
5 A Yes, I am.
6 Q Can you tell us how it was that
7 you -- you learned or you became aware of this
8 incident?
9 A On Sunday morning I was actually in
10 Disney World with my family at the time. I
11 received a call from either the Deputy Mayor
12 or -- or the Mayor -- could have been the Deputy
13 Mayor or the Mayor, appraising me of an incident
14 that happened after a -- a social event that
15 Engine 2 Rescue was having. And it was an
16 incident that happened in front of the
17 firehouse.
18 Q I want to step back for a second.
19 Are you aware of the social event that he is
20 referring to --
21 A Yes.
22 Q -- he was referring to?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And what event was that?
25 A Periodically each company, they label it
00044
1 as a night -- a company night out. And it's --
2 it's geared to -- they have -- during the course
3 of the year, the Fire Department, each
4 particular company, they do fund-raisers and
5 things of that nature. And once or twice a year
6 they have a company night out where it's a sign
7 of appreciation to their spouse and to their
8 families, where they take their spouses out.
9 And it's just basically a night out with the
10 company, with their spouse or significant other.
11 And it's -- it's more or less just a social
12 gathering.
13 Usually it's over, you know, dinner at
14 a restaurant. Sometimes it's a Broadway play.
15 You rent a bus, you take a bus into New York
16 City for a play. We've had social nights out
17 where we took buses down to Atlantic City and
18 had a company night out in Atlantic City. And
19 it's more or less a sign of appreciation, as
20 well as a morale booster.
21 Q What, if any, involvement does the
22 Town of Secaucus have in these parties?
23 A The Town of Secaucus has, more or less,
24 zero. The money that is being spent is money
25 that is raised by each individual company. It's
00045
1 not part of the municipal budget. The money
2 that they raise, it belongs specifically to
3 that -- those particular companies. Most
4 companies are 501(3)c's, which is -- basically
5 is a nonprofit status, which they can raise
6 money because they are a nonprofit organization.
7 And they have fund-raisers during the course of
8 the year. The money that they raise is
9 specifically under their jurisdiction. The
10 municipality doesn't have any say on how they
11 spend that money.
12 Q What is the Town's policy with
13 regard to firefighters responding to fire calls
14 when they're out drinking?
15 A When they're out drinking? There is more
16 or less a policy within the Department that you
17 take yourself -- what you would -- out of
18 service. When I say, "take yourself out of
19 service," if I was planning on having a party
20 tonight out of my house, I would be taking
21 myself off the roster, so that if an alarm did
22 come in, I would not respond to any calls for
23 that evening. I would start responding the next
24 morning.
25 Q And what is the policy when a
00046
1 company has a company night out?
2 A The entire company notifies the Chief as
3 the department as a whole; and they take
4 their -- they take the entire company out of
5 service, so that the other four -- the other
6 four companies know that that particular is not
7 in Town, that in the event that an alarm would
8 happen, they would not even be responding. So
9 the other companies would know that they would
10 not expect Rescue or Engine 2 to arrive on a
11 scene.
12 Q Now I want to get back to the
13 conversation that you had when you were down at
14 Disney World. And I believe you told us about
15 the phone call that you had received. And what,
16 if any, action did you take in response to that
17 phone call?
18 A I -- I was the administrator/EEO officer.
19 Certainly, I wanted to, more or less, be
20 appraised of what happened. Obviously, I was
21 just getting the details as -- as they were
22 being relayed to me over the phone. Obviously,
23 I didn't know the entire story. I wasn't
24 scheduled to come back, I believe, until
25 April 29th.
00047
1 Q When you came back, what, if any,
2 involvement did you have with regard to this
3 incident?
4 A Well, obviously, I realized that what was
5 alleged to have happened was -- certainly would
6 be considered a form of -- of harassment. And
7 certainly, as a EEO officer, I wanted to make
8 sure I was doing my job to comply with not only
9 the law but, you know, the municipal policy, as
10 well.
11 Q In your duties as Township
12 administrator did you conduct any separate or
13 independent investigation into the incidents of
14 April 25th, 2004?
15 A Prior to my starting an investigation or
16 at the very, very inception of investigation to
17 begin I was told by the Town attorney
18 initially --
19 MR. MULLIN: Objection, hearsay.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
21 MR. BEVERE: Your Honor, can we
22 come --
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. You want to
24 go --
25 MR. BEVERE: I would like -- thank
00048
1 you.
2 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
3 discussion is held.)
4 MR. BEVERE: I assume that the
5 objection is a hearsay objection?
6 JUDGE CURRAN: That was my
7 assumption.
8 MR. MULLIN: That's what I said.
9 MS. SMITH: That's what he said.
10 MR. BEVERE: This witness received
11 an instruction from the Town attorney not to do
12 an investigation. It's not hearsay. This was
13 an instruction provided to him by the Town
14 attorney.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. But you can
16 handle it. Just rephrase the question.
17 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I want to
18 be heard on --
19 MR. BEVERE: Well, Judge --
20 MR. MULLIN: The Town -- that's a
21 hearsay statement. It's an out-of-court
22 declaration offered for the truth of the matter
23 asserted. If they want to put the Town attorney
24 on, he can do that. He is listed as a witness.
25 He can testify.
00049
1 MR. BEVERE: He is listed as a
2 witness.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: You can save the
4 questions for him. You can go back at this
5 witness a different way. But what you asked him
6 would elicit hearsay.
7 MR. BEVERE: I'd rather not have
8 to come back here again --
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Pardon me?
10 MR. BEVERE: I would rather not
11 have to come back to sidebar again, so let me --
12 let me see if I can phrase it for us here and
13 work out any objections before I ask the
14 question; and I'll ask it exactly as is.
15 Did you have any conversations
16 with the Town attorney? As a result of those
17 conversations what, if anything, did you do?
18 JUDGE CURRAN: As a result of this
19 conversation?
20 MR. BEVERE: What, if anything,
21 did you do?
22 MR. MULLIN: No, he can establish
23 that he had a conversation; and then he can say
24 what he did.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Right.
00050
1 MR. MULLIN: But as a result of
2 those conversations --
3 JUDGE CURRAN: So you can ask it
4 as two questions.
5 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
6 concluded.)
7 MR. BEVERE: Okay. I will ask two
8 questions. Two out of three ain't bad.
9 BY MR. BEVERE:
10 Q Okay. Mr. Iacono, did you have a
11 conversation with the Town attorney Frank Leanza
12 about this incident?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q Did you conduct any separate or
15 independent investigation into this incident?
16 A No.
17 Q Do you know if an investigation by
18 anyone was conducted into this incident?
19 A Yes.
20 Q By whom?
21 A Initially the Secaucus Police Department.
22 Sometime shortly after that the Hudson County
23 Prosecutor's Office. Sometime shortly after
24 that the New Jersey State Attorney General's
25 Office.
00051
1 Q And were you personally visited by
2 investigators from the State Attorney General's
3 Office?
4 A Yes, I was.
5 Q And were you provided with any
6 documentation by the State Attorney General's
7 Office?
8 A Yes, I was.
9 Q And do you recall as you are
10 sitting here what it was you were provided with?
11 A When the State Attorney General's Office
12 got involved in this particular issue, they
13 issued a written correspondence that basically
14 said that they were the lead agency
15 investigating this and that the municipality
16 should absolutely do -- do nothing and just sit
17 and more or less wait for them to conduct and
18 take care of their -- their business.
19 Q All right. I am going to show you
20 what I have marked as D-30 and D-31 for
21 Identification. I'm going to ask you if this is
22 a copy of that letter that you received from the
23 Attorney General's Office.
24 MS. SMITH: D-30?
25 MR. BEVERE: D-30 and D-31.
00052
1 A D-230.
2 MR. BEVERE: Oh, D-230 and 31, I
3 apologize.
4 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, may I just
5 have a minute to focus this?
6 MR. BEVERE: What did I say
7 initially, 330?
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes, you said D-30.
9 It's D-230.
10 MR. BEVERE: Okay. I apologize.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris, you
12 know, that's not -- okay.
13 BY MR. BEVERE:
14 Q And is that a copy of the letter
15 that you received from the Attorney General's
16 Office?
17 A Yes, it is.
18 Q Okay. Were you copied on that
19 letter?
20 A Yes, I was.
21 Q Can I have that back, please?
22 Thank you. Oh, and I'm sorry, if you could just
23 read the last paragraph of the letter for us?
24 A By copy of this letter I am notifying the
25 Secaucus EEO compliance officer that the OBCCR
00053
1 will be reviewing the above case -- the above
2 case investigation. The Township of Secaucus
3 should withhold administrative action under NJSA
4 40A:14-119 pending notification from the
5 Division of Criminal -- Criminal Justice and
6 their investigation as it has been completed.
7 Q Now, did you provide at the
8 Attorney General's request any documentation or
9 information from your office?
10 A I believe they requested quite a -- they
11 requested a lot of paperwork as it pertained to
12 the municipal code, as it pertained to the
13 policies and procedures.
14 Q Did you provide -- provide them
15 with that documentation that they requested?
16 A Absolutely, yes.
17 Q I'm going to show you another
18 letter, which is D-308. Oh, and -- and before I
19 ask you about D-308, did you ever have any
20 conversations with the Chief of Police about the
21 criminal investigation?
22 A I'm sure I did, yes.
23 Q And as you are sitting here today
24 do you recall the nature and substance of those
25 discussions?
00054
1 A You know, initially I may have compared,
2 you know, the story as far as what I heard, as
3 far as what he heard as far as the incident was
4 concerned. I may have told him what I was
5 planning on doing. I think I also even put it
6 in writing.
7 Q And what were you planning on
8 doing?
9 A Well, initially, obviously, it, you know,
10 would certainly fall within the guidelines of a
11 complaint. And I was -- I was initially under
12 the impression that I would just go ahead and
13 start a file on the actual complaint, itself.
14 Q But did you go ahead and do that?
15 A Based on the advice of the Town
16 attorney --
17 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
18 Honor.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
20 MR. MULLIN: Motion to strike.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained, granted.
22 I will strike the last answer.
23 BY MR. BEVERE:
24 Q So you did not --
25 A No, I did not.
00055
1 Q -- perform an investigation? I
2 want to show you what I have marked as D-308 for
3 Identification. Dave --
4 MR. PARIS: I'm sorry.
5 MR. BEVERE: -- 308.
6 MR. PARIS: 308? I'm sorry.
7 BY MR. BEVERE:
8 Q Ask you if you could identify
9 that?
10 A Okay.
11 Q What is D-308?
12 A It's a letter from my office directed to
13 Mr. Carter, Mr. deVries as it pertained to
14 the -- the incident that took place. And it's
15 more or less a introductory letter that I am the
16 Town Administrator, I am the EEO officer. And
17 certainly I had given them any opportunity, if
18 they wanted to reach out directly to me. I
19 thought it was within my responsibility to at
20 least notify them of who I am and what are my
21 duties and responsibilities are.
22 Q Now, did you ever receive any
23 contact or communication from Mr. deVries or
24 Mr. Carter in response to your letter?
25 A Never.
00056
1 Q To this day have you ever spoken
2 to Mr. deVries or Mr. Carter?
3 A Never.
4 Q Now, I would like to talk about --
5 were you aware that the Fire Chief --
6 MR. MULLIN: Objection leading.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
8 BY MR. BEVERE:
9 Q What was your understanding as
10 to --
11 MR. BEVERE: Your Honor, can I
12 have about 10, 15 seconds to think of my
13 rephrasing? Thank you.
14 Q When you returned from Florida,
15 was the North End firehouse opened or closed?
16 A The North End Firehouse, the engine room
17 was fully operational. The backroom, what we --
18 what we call the back quarters of the firehouse
19 was ordered closed by the Fire Chief of the
20 Department.
21 Q And at some point were you
22 involved in any decision-making with regard to
23 that backroom?
24 A I certainly expressed an opinion to the
25 Fire Chief.
00057
1 Q I want to show you some
2 correspondence. The first thing I want to show
3 you is a letter dated April 29th, 2004, which is
4 D-298 and D-299. And I am going to ask you if
5 you are familiar with that letter?
6 A Yes, I am.
7 Q Okay. Were you copied on that
8 letter?
9 A Yes, I was.
10 Q And I'm going to show you what has
11 been marked as D-307 for Identification and ask
12 you to look at that, identify that for us.
13 A Okay.
14 Q First of all, D-298 and D-299,
15 what is that document?
16 A That's a letter from the rescue Engine
17 Company 2. The letter was addressed to the Fire
18 Chief. And they were, I guess, expressing their
19 displeasure in his decision to close the
20 backroom of the Fire Department -- I'm sorry --
21 yeah, the firehouse.
22 Q And based upon your reading of the
23 letter, did the members mention to threaten any
24 action?
25 A Through the letter they mentioned that
00058
1 they felt that they were being not treated
2 fairly and that they did threaten to resign. I
3 believe in one of the paragraphs that they
4 referred to that they would consider resigning.
5 Q And then your letter of
6 April 30th, I believe D-307, can you tell us
7 what that letter is?
8 A My letter, I guess, as the EEO officer
9 and -- and the administrator, I was trying to
10 find some sort of happy medium, if there was a
11 happy medium. I certainly did not want to
12 interfere or to get in the way of any kind of
13 police investigation, but at the same time
14 the -- I thought the remedy here was to allow
15 the firehouse to operate -- to operate fully,
16 not just with an engine room but with the entire
17 building. I thought that would be best for
18 everyone involved.
19 Q Well, tell us the reasons why you
20 thought it would have been best to reopen the
21 fire quarters following the Chief's order that
22 it had been ordered to close it previously?
23 A Obviously, we had a morale problem. We
24 had firefighters that were not even at the --
25 the event on -- on the night of the -- the
00059
1 incident that happened. So you know, we had
2 firefighters that weren't anywhere near the
3 firehouse that night; they were being penalized.
4 There was public perception that -- when you
5 say, "The firehouse is closed," there is a
6 perception that --
7 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
8 Honor. It's a public perception; it's hearsay.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
10 THE WITNESS: Can I continue?
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes, you just can't
12 talk about what some person --
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 BY MR. BEVERE:
15 A I had received calls.
16 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your Honor
17 hearsay.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 BY MR. BEVERE:
21 Q Without telling us what anyone
22 told you, Mr. Iacono, give your reasons why you
23 thought it best to allow the firehouse to be
24 open.
25 A I thought it was in the best interest of
00060
1 the Town as a whole, as a Fire Department as a
2 whole and as a fire company as a whole to
3 continue to operate and to function as the Fire
4 Department has always functioned.
5 Q What, if any, impact or
6 consideration did you give to the fact that --
7 MR. MULLIN: Objection. This is a
8 leading question.
9 MR. BEVERE: Judge, my question
10 was what, if any.
11 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, he has
12 said what the -- he has already answered the
13 question as to what went into his
14 considerations. Now an answer is being
15 suggested to elaborate on what he said. So I
16 object to it as a leading question, suggesting
17 an answer to the witness.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm going to
19 sustain it. You can rephrase, if you'd like.
20 BY MR. BEVERE:
21 Q What, if any, concern did you have
22 about the members of Engine Company Number 2
23 resigning?
24 A Well, certainly the particular -- that
25 particular period, obviously, I -- I did have
00061
1 a -- what I would consider a concern. And as
2 the administrator, I thought that I had to take
3 appropriate action to try to at least find the
4 happy medium, if there was one. And I took
5 several things into consideration that included
6 the fact that by opening up the Fire Department,
7 it would not have any kind of impact on the
8 investigation that was going on. Secaucus
9 Police Department were monitoring and
10 investigating the situation very closely. At
11 one point there was a police personnel assigned
12 to that particular block and actually sat in the
13 parking lot of the firehouse.
14 So by opening the Fire Department and
15 running the Fire Department at full operation I
16 didn't have any great concern that there would
17 be any kind of negative impact on the actual
18 investigation because the Secaucus Police
19 Department were -- were monitoring it firsthand
20 and it would -- it eliminated any kind of fear
21 that this would have a negative impact or that
22 it would interfere with the investigation.
23 Q Well, did you believe that by --
24 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
25 Objection, Your Honor, suggests an answer.
00062
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
2 BY MR. BEVERE:
3 Q What, if any, concerns did you
4 have about Mr. deVries' --
5 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
6 Honor, leading, suggests an answer, asked and
7 answered. This question has been asked and
8 answered many times, what motivated him, what
9 was his concern in reopening. Now an answer is
10 being suggested. I ask that the question be
11 stricken, and I ask that we move on to another
12 topic.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: I am going to
14 sustain it as hearsay. I am going to strike it.
15 And not sustaining it in regard to asked and
16 answered in regard to the two plaintiffs.
17 Please ask another question.
18 MR. BEVERE: All right.
19 BY MR. BEVERE:
20 Q When you asked the Chief to
21 reconsider his decision to reopen the firehouse,
22 what, if any, thought or consideration did you
23 give to the interest of the --
24 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
00063
1 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
2 Honor. Same objection.
3 MR. BEVERE: Judge, can we come to
4 sidebar?
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Surely.
6 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
7 discussion is held.)
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere, I am
9 really not trying to give you a hard time, and I
10 don't think Mr. Mullin is either.
11 MR. BEVERE: Judge.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: But if you say,
13 "What consideration," even if you add the "if
14 any," what consideration, if any, did you give
15 to the facts that the plaintiffs lived next door
16 or -- you're -- you're suggesting to him that
17 that was one of his considerations or --
18 MR. MULLIN: That's right.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: What consideration
20 are you giving to, if any, to the fact that the
21 firemen had a morale problem or -- it suggests
22 that there was that consideration in his mind,
23 even if you say, "if any."
24 MR. BEVERE: Well --
25 JUDGE CURRAN: He gave his answer.
00064
1 MR. MULLIN: He gave his answer
2 many times. And unfortunately for Mr. Bevere,
3 he never once mentioned that he was concerned
4 about -- which is consistent with his
5 deposition, I might add, completely consistent.
6 And now he is suggesting something of critical
7 importance to this case. This witness was
8 completely indifferent to the concerns of my
9 clients in his consideration.
10 MR. BEVERE: Not true.
11 MR. MULLIN: And in his deposition
12 he failed to mention anything about concerns
13 about Peter and Tim's safety. So, Your Honor,
14 this is so wrong to suggest this answer.
15 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I would like
16 to ask him: Did you believe -- by reopening the
17 firehouse did you believe you would be
18 subjecting Mr. deVries and Mr. Carter to any
19 additional incidents of harassment?
20 JUDGE CURRAN: And is he going to
21 say, "Yes"? I am really not trying to give you
22 a hard time; but honestly, Mr. Bevere, I don't
23 even know what he said at his deposition and
24 I -- honestly, I'm trying to be fair to both
25 sides. But when he gave his answer, I read it
00065
1 along and in my own mind I thought, Well, then
2 he is going to get to the plaintiffs. I wrote
3 my note myself, "nothing on plaintiffs." That's
4 his answer.
5 MR. BEVERE: Well, then, Judge --
6 JUDGE CURRAN: He doesn't have
7 to --
8 MR. BEVERE: Judge, why can't I
9 ask him if he gave any thought or consideration
10 to the plaintiffs?
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Because it's a
12 leading question.
13 MR. MULLIN: He already answered
14 the question. He laid out all of his thoughts.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: It's classically
16 suggesting what you want him to say.
17 MR. BEVERE: I think --
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Because, you know,
19 if you -- if you think there is a real chance
20 that you can ask him, "Did you give any
21 consideration to the safety or the emotional
22 concerns of the plaintiffs" and he says, "No,"
23 I'd be amazed. He'll -- you know, then he will
24 be stuck with his deposition. But it's just
25 not -- we don't need to go there.
00066
1 MR. BEVERE: Okay.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm really not
3 trying to give you a hard time.
4 MR. BEVERE: I understand. I
5 understand. I may be very close to being done.
6 Can I have a couple minutes to look at my notes?
7 MR. MULLIN: Can I --
8 JUDGE CURRAN: I am not rushing
9 you -- do you want to take the morning break
10 before you do cross or -- I have no objection to
11 taking a morning break whenever. I'm not trying
12 to rush you.
13 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
14 concluded.)
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Back on the record.
16 Did you need a couple minutes?
17 MR. BEVERE: Before we take a
18 morning break -- I may be very done with this
19 witness or very close thereto -- if I can just
20 have a couple minutes and then we can break.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Absolutely.
22 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
24 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
25 off the record.)
00067
1 BY MR. BEVERE:
2 Q Just a couple of quick questions,
3 Mr. Iacono.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Back on the record.
5 COURT CLERK: On the record.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
7 BY MR. BEVERE:
8 Q After April 25th of 2004 were you
9 made aware of any other complaints by Mr.
10 deVries or Mr. Carter about behavior of the
11 firefighters of the North End Firehouse?
12 A Not at all.
13 Q And my other question to you is:
14 Did you then or do you now have any social
15 relationship with anyone from the North End Fire
16 Company?
17 A No, I have been out of -- I'm sorry, been
18 in Paramus since September. Haven't really had
19 an opportunity to get back and -- very little.
20 Q How about in April of '04; were
21 you friendly with anyone out there?
22 A I knew all of the members; but I wouldn't
23 consider that I went out with them socially, no.
24 Q And oh, and -- I'm sorry. Prior
25 to April 25th of 2004 were you made aware of any
00068
1 complaints by any person against any member of
2 the North End Fire Company?
3 A None at all, no.
4 MR. BEVERE: No further questions.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
6 Ladies and Gentlemen, it's 20 to
7 11, so we will take the morning break. This
8 time you need to warm up. You never know in
9 this courthouse.
10 Again, please don't discuss the
11 case amongst yourself, nor with anyone else.
12 Off the record.
13 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
14 JUDGE CURRAN: You may step down,
15 sir.
16 I didn't tell them how long; but
17 if you want to take 10, 15 minutes, whenever
18 you're ready.
19 MR. BEVERE: That's fine. Thank
20 you, Judge.
21 (Whereupon, a brief recess is
22 taken.)
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Bring out the jury.
24 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
25 approaching.
00069
1 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
2 into the courtroom.)
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
4 COURT CLERK: On the record.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
6 Thank you. Please be seated.
7 Thank you. Sir, I'm required to
8 remind you that you are still under oath.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
11 Mr. Mullin.
12 MR. MULLIN: Thank you, Your
13 Honor.
14 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
15 Q Sir, the incident in question here
16 happened in the early morning hours of
17 April 25th, 2004, true?
18 A Yes.
19 Q The letter that Mr. Bevere showed
20 you from the Attorney General, well, that letter
21 is dated 15 days after the incident occurred,
22 true?
23 A May 10th.
24 Q And that's 15 days after the
25 incident, right?
00070
1 A I'm sure.
2 Q 25th -- okay. And that letter is
3 dated D -- is marked D-230 and D-231. And
4 contrary to what you said, that letter does not
5 tell you that the municipality should do
6 nothing, right? Doesn't have those words in it,
7 right?
8 A "By copy of this letter I am notifying
9 the Secaucus EEO compliance officer that the
10 OBC" -- "OBCCR will be reviewing the above case
11 investigation. The Township of Secaucus should
12 withhold administrative action."
13 Q And did it cite a statute? You
14 didn't read the whole thing, did you?
15 A NJSA --
16 Q Township -- should read the whole
17 sentence. Okay. "The Township of Secaucus
18 should withhold administrative action under NJSA
19 40A:14-119 pending notification from the
20 Division of Criminal Justice that their
21 investigation has been completed," right?
22 That's what it says, right?
23 A That's what that letter says, sir.
24 Q And 40A:14-119, do you know what
25 that is, sir?
00071
1 A No, sir.
2 Q You don't even know what that
3 statute is?
4 A Absolutely not, sir.
5 Q And in any event, you didn't get
6 this letter until 15 days after the incident,
7 right?
8 A The actual physical letter, sir?
9 Q Yeah, the physical letter.
10 A No, sir.
11 Q It's dated May 10th. You recall
12 when you got it after she put it in the mail?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Let's focus on what happened
15 before you got some letter from the Attorney
16 General referring to some statute you don't know
17 what it means.
18 A Sure.
19 Q You were in Disney World, you
20 said, right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And then you said you came back on
23 April 29th, right?
24 A I believe it was the 29th, sir, yes.
25 Q That was your testimony to the
00072
1 jury, right? And then the very next thing you
2 did with -- well, on April 29th you got that
3 letter that your attorney showed you from these
4 firemen threatening to resign, right? That's
5 dated April 29th?
6 A I believe so, yes.
7 Q Okay. And really, the very next
8 action you took when you got back from Disney
9 World is to reopen the firehouse, which you did
10 on April 30th, true?
11 A I did not reopen the firehouse on the
12 30th. I wrote a letter on April 30th, sir.
13 Q Recommending that it be reopened
14 for all -- for full use of this house without
15 any restriction, right?
16 A That is correct, sir.
17 Q Okay. That was a letter you wrote
18 to Chief Walters, right?
19 A That is correct, sir.
20 Q We should look at that letter
21 again, I guess. This one is marked Plaintiff's
22 Exhibit 344. This is the letter you were
23 referring to, right, the letter you wrote to
24 Chief Walters on April 30th, 2004, right?
25 A I wrote that letter on April 30th, 2004,
00073
1 sir.
2 Q You copied it to Mayor Dennis
3 Elwell and all the members of the Town Council;
4 is that right?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Copied to Frank Leanza, the Town
7 attorney, right?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Copied it to Dennis Corcoran, the
10 police chief, correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q You even copied it to Chuck
13 Snyder. Is that Junior or Senior, Charles T.
14 Snyder?
15 A I believe that would be Senior, sir.
16 Q That would be Senior. He wasn't
17 even the captain of the firehouse at that
18 moment, right? His son was, right?
19 A I would have to refresh my memory on who
20 was the captain at that time, sir.
21 Q But for some reason you saw fit to
22 copy your letter suggesting the reopening of the
23 firehouse, recommending reopening the firehouse
24 to Chuck Snyder, Sr., right?
25 A That's correct, sir.
00074
1 Q And you said, "Please be advised
2 as the EEO officer I am unable to comment on the
3 ongoing police investigation," reading from your
4 letter. "However, my initial review does not
5 preclude from a municipal compliance position of
6 the Town of Secaucus full use of this house
7 without any restrictions." Well, that's what
8 you wrote to the Chief, right?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q And the Chief opened the
11 firehouse, right?
12 A Sometime soon after I think that the
13 Chief made a decision to open the firehouse.
14 Q Well, are you aware that the
15 firehouse was reopened on April 30th, 2004? I
16 will show you a police report. D-69 by Sergeant
17 Glenn Amodeo. You know Sergeant Glenn Amodeo,
18 right?
19 A Know the sergeant very well.
20 Q Okay. And you see this is a
21 police report, right?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And he says on this date, "The
24 undersigned, Sergeant Amodeo, was advised by
25 Captain Rozansky and Detective Sergeant Reinke
00075
1 that the North End Fire Company was reopened to
2 social use by its members"; that's what he
3 wrote, right?
4 A I have never seen that report. I could
5 take a look at it, sir.
6 Q Please take a look at it. You
7 don't take issue with that, do you?
8 A Do I take issue on --
9 Q The fact that he is reporting,
10 that Sergeant Amodeo's reporting that the
11 firehouse has been reopened for social purposes
12 on that day, April 30th.
13 A Do I take issue?
14 Q With the date, the fact that it
15 was reopened on that day?
16 A I take no issue to that, sir.
17 Q Now, you were asked several times
18 by Mr. Bevere during his examination of you in
19 front of this jury what factors did you take
20 into account in recommending the reopening of
21 the firehouse for all purposes? And what you
22 said was I considered the morale of the firemen,
23 I considered those individuals who were not in
24 attendance at the party that night?
25 A Uh-huh.
00076
1 Q And you made a vague reference to
2 some public perception, but then there was an
3 objection. What you didn't say, sir, what you
4 didn't make any reference to at all in
5 testifying before this jury about your reasons
6 for reopening the firehouse was a consideration
7 concerning the safety and well being and
8 psychological and physical health of Peter --
9 Peter deVries and Tim Carter. You didn't
10 mention that at all in your testimony to this
11 jury a few minutes ago, true?
12 A That's not true.
13 Q So when we look at the transcript,
14 we will see that you have testified to that
15 effect in front of this jury?
16 A We will testify that -- that I knew and I
17 was fully aware that there was police presence
18 right in front of their house.
19 Q But you -- you said that that
20 would preserve the investigation. That's what
21 you testified before the jury, that the
22 investigation would not be compromised because
23 police cars were there. But what you didn't say
24 to this jury, when asked a question what factors
25 did you take account of in deciding to recommend
00077
1 reopening this firehouse, you never mentioned to
2 this jury the physical safety, the psychological
3 health of Peter deVries and Tim Carter, true?
4 You never mentioned that factor to this jury a
5 few moments ago in your testimony, true? Yes or
6 no?
7 A No.
8 Q And you -- the firehouse is
9 reopened; and on the first day the firehouse is
10 reopened somebody drives by the house of Carter
11 and deVries yelling, "The homos are home. The
12 homos are home." You know that, don't you?
13 A Absolutely not, sir.
14 Q Uh-huh. You know that my client,
15 Tim Carter, called up the Mayor and left a voice
16 mail reporting that incident and that this jury
17 has heard. And you say you reported directly to
18 the Mayor, right?
19 A I report to the Mayor and Council, sir,
20 yes.
21 Q And you're telling this jury the
22 Mayor never told you, Hey, you know, we reopened
23 the firehouse and the minute it's reopened
24 someone is driving by saying, "The homos are
25 home. The homos are home"? The Mayor never
00078
1 said that to you?
2 A I don't believe so, no, sir.
3 Q You don't believe so.
4 A First I'm hearing of it.
5 Q And you told this jury -- the
6 Police Chief reports to you, right?
7 A For an -- on the administrative end of
8 it, yes.
9 Q The Fire Chief reports to you,
10 right?
11 MR. BEVERE: Judge, can he finish
12 his answer with -- with regard to the Police
13 Chief?
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
15 BY MR. MULLIN:
16 A Are we answering the Police Chief or Fire
17 Chief?
18 Q Go ahead with the Police Chief.
19 A For the Police Chief, as I testified
20 before, the Police Chief is direct
21 responsibilities of the Police Department and to
22 run the day-to-day affairs to carry out the laws
23 governed by the State of New Jersey within the
24 jurisdiction of the Police Department.
25 From an administrative end of it,
00079
1 strictly budgetary reasons, the Chief reports to
2 me when it comes to the municipal budget.
3 Q Thank you. Sir, you have told
4 this jury that you didn't hear of any other
5 incidents concerning the attacks or homophobic
6 insults, prejudiced insults to my clients after
7 April 25th; is that your testimony?
8 A After April 25th as it pertains to the
9 Secaucus Volunteer Fire Department?
10 Q Yes, sir.
11 A Absolutely not.
12 Q Police Chief Corcoran never told
13 you about investigative reports concerning such
14 matters?
15 A Never had any discussions with the Chief
16 about anything other than the Secaucus Volunteer
17 Fire Department.
18 Q And you were the Town
19 administrator right?
20 A That's correct, sir.
21 Q And Chief Corcoran never came to
22 you and said, "You know what, we got a problem.
23 Since we reopened this firehouse there are all
24 kinds of incidents with firemen shining their
25 lights late at night in, with cars driving by
00080
1 and screaming, "faggot" at them"? You're
2 telling this jury the Police Chief never told
3 you, the Town Administrator, about any of that?
4 A Absolutely, sir.
5 Q And the Mayor never told you
6 anything about -- about that, right, these post
7 April 25th incidents, right?
8 A You're referring to a voice mail, sir?
9 Q No, that wasn't my question just
10 now. I will ask it again.
11 A Sure.
12 Q We have already covered the Police
13 Chief. You are telling the jury the Mayor,
14 Mayor Elwell never called you up or spoke to you
15 or sent you an e-mail and said, you know, "Since
16 the firehouse is reopened on April 30th there
17 have been all kinds of incidents involving
18 firemen and" -- "and other persons yelling
19 prejudiced things at the Carters" -- "Carter and
20 deVries, shining their headlights into the
21 window, slamming the wall"?
22 A I know I have never heard of one other
23 incident after April 30th as it pertained to the
24 Secaucus Fire Department as it relates to this
25 case, sir.
00081
1 Q Now, the incident that happened
2 on -- concerning people driving by and saying,
3 "The homos are home. The homos are home," well,
4 that was May 1st. And you're saying you're not
5 aware of that?
6 A Hearsay.
7 Q Let's not have evidence rulings.
8 You are not aware of it, right?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Is that what you are telling this
11 jury?
12 A That's exactly what I'm telling this
13 jury.
14 Q Because Mr. Bevere showed you a
15 letter where you introduced yourself. This is
16 D-60 -- looks like D-65 -- excuse me,
17 Plaintiff's Exhibit 65. It's the letter of May
18 3rd, 2004 signed by you, right?
19 A That's correct, sir.
20 Q You wrote it to Carter and
21 deVries, right?
22 A That's correct, sir.
23 Q And this is where you introduced
24 yourself as the Town Administrator and also the
25 EEO compliance officer, right?
00082
1 A That is correct, sir.
2 Q And you said your responsibilities
3 include the assurance that the Town of Secaucus
4 and its agents conduct themselves in a fair,
5 non-discriminatory manner, in a harassment-free
6 environment, right?
7 A Absolutely.
8 Q You say, "I have been fully
9 informed and am familiar with the complaint you
10 have lodged with the Secaucus Police Department.
11 And I want you to be aware that separate of your
12 involvement with the Police Department you may
13 feel free to contact and meet with me directly,"
14 right?
15 A Absolutely, sir.
16 Q That's what you wrote. And then
17 you made the point that they never got a hold of
18 you? Carter and deVries never got back to you
19 on this letter, right?
20 A Never reached out to me, sir.
21 Q This letter is dated May 3rd,
22 right?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q The fire -- you reopened the
25 firehouse on April 30th; and by May 1st people
00083
1 were driving by screaming, "The homos are home.
2 The homos are home." You are not aware of that?
3 A I said that three times, sir. The first
4 I'm hearing about an incident after April 30th
5 as it pertained to the Secaucus Volunteer Fire
6 Department.
7 Q Do you think your reopening the
8 firehouse on April 30th caused them great fear
9 and pain, that that might be the reason that
10 they didn't get back after the May 3rd letter?
11 Is that possible?
12 A Not with the amount of --
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Hold on.
14 MR. BEVERE: No, he can answer the
15 question, thank you.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: I thought there was
17 an objection.
18 MR. BEVERE: I would like to have
19 him answer his question.
20 BY MR. MULLIN:
21 A Could you repeat the question?
22 Q You just answered it; it's okay.
23 A I didn't finish my answer.
24 Q You didn't finish your answer?
25 A Because I was interrupted.
00084
1 Q Let me see. You were interrupted
2 by that objection?
3 JUDGE CURRAN: No, he was
4 interrupted by me. I thought Mr. Bevere had an
5 objection.
6 Q I thought we had an answer.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: I don't see an
8 answer on this. If Tracey would please read
9 back the question.
10 (Whereupon, the requested portion
11 is read back by the reporter as follows:
12 "QUESTION: Do you think your
13 reopening the firehouse on April 30th
14 caused them great fear and pain, that
15 that might be the reason that they didn't
16 get back after the May 3rd letter? Is
17 that possible?
18 ANSWER: Not with the amount
19 of --")
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 BY MR. MULLIN:
22 A With the amount of police presence that
23 was felt in that particular neighborhood,
24 specifically on that block, it was my opinion at
25 that time when I made that decision that I took
00085
1 into consideration everybody. Took into
2 consideration the Fire Department. I took into
3 consideration the neighbors. I took into
4 consideration the community. I felt that with
5 the amount of police presence and the efforts
6 that the Secaucus Police Department was
7 providing, it certainly took in consideration
8 their -- their safety and well being.
9 Q Sir, you didn't have in your
10 possession the police reports prepared in
11 connection with this matter describing what
12 degree of police protection had been afforded?
13 You didn't have that on May 3rd, right? You
14 didn't have those police reports, right?
15 A I was appraised of the situation first
16 day I came back from my vacation, sir.
17 Q Appraised by whom?
18 A Probably a combination of the Mayor,
19 Deputy Mayor. I had conversations with the Fire
20 Chief. I had conversations with the Police
21 Chief. All of the conversations and -- and all
22 of my discussions with the Town attorney, who
23 played a very important role in the decisions
24 that we were making, obviously, because there
25 were, you know, legal questions and legal
00086
1 considerations that the Town attorney was
2 advising us on.
3 But certainly, I was aware when I came
4 back from my vacation that there was police
5 presence on that particular block in that
6 particular neighborhood. And you know, quite
7 frankly, it was probably the safest -- safest
8 neighborhood in Secaucus during that period.
9 Q Because that's the way you worked,
10 right? You were the Town Administrator. Police
11 Chief would talk to you. The Mayor would talk
12 to you. The Fire Chief would talk to you. You
13 were -- that's the way you worked as Town
14 Administrator, true?
15 A Could you repeat the question?
16 Q I will have it read back.
17 (Whereupon, the requested portion
18 is read back by the reporter as follows:
19 "QUESTION: Because that's the way
20 you worked, right? You were the Town
21 Administrator. Police Chief would talk
22 to you. The Mayor would talk to you.
23 The Fire Chief would talk to you. You
24 were -- that's the way you worked as Town
25 Administrator, true?")
00087
1 BY MR. MULLIN:
2 Q True?
3 A That's the way I worked?
4 Q That was your standard operating
5 procedure? You would have to deal with these
6 people on regular basis, right?
7 A Yeah, you are just confusing me with,
8 "That's the way you work." Are you referring to
9 my style, or are you referring to -- referring
10 to my responsibilities?
11 Q Style, style or standard operating
12 procedure. It was normal in the course of your
13 business as Town administrator to deal with the
14 Mayor, deal with the Chief --
15 A Communication is essential.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Hold on,
17 sir. I am going to ask you to allow Mr. Mullin
18 to finish.
19 THE WITNESS: Sure.
20 BY MR. MULLIN:
21 Q The way you worked as Town
22 Administrator, the way you worked in Secaucus as
23 Town administrator, you had to deal on a fairly
24 regular basis with the Mayor, the police chief
25 and fire chiefs and other department heads,
00088
1 true? Simple question?
2 A Communication is essential, sir.
3 Q Okay. What you are telling this
4 jury is while -- when you came back -- you are
5 saying that Police Chief Corcoran or somebody
6 told you how there was all this police coverage
7 there, but at the same time you're telling this
8 jury that none of those people ever, ever, ever
9 told you about all these incidents that happened
10 after the firehouse was reopened? Is that what
11 you are trying to tell the jury?
12 A I am not aware of any incidences after
13 the initial incidents of the night in question
14 as it pertains to the Secaucus Volunteer Fire
15 Department, sir, which is my duty and
16 responsibility.
17 Q Sir, at the moment you made the
18 recommendation in your letter of April 30th to
19 reopen the firehouse, you hadn't even reviewed
20 the police record as to what -- what it had
21 turned up in their investigation, right? You
22 hadn't -- you hadn't reviewed that record,
23 right?
24 A Again --
25 Q Yes or no? I am allowed to ask
00089
1 yes or no questions. This is cross. Your
2 lawyer can elicit further testimony, sir.
3 Yes or no; as of the moment you wrote
4 the April 30th letter recommending the full
5 reopening of the fire -- the North End Firehouse
6 you didn't have in your possession and you
7 hadn't reviewed the police reports concerning
8 the April 25th incident, true?
9 A Is the question did I have a police
10 report? The answer is no. Was I appraised?
11 Yes.
12 Q In fact, I will show you what's
13 been marked P-186. On the same day that you
14 wrote the letter to Chief Walters saying I
15 recommend you reopen the firehouse, that's the
16 first moment, on that same day, that you even
17 asked Corcoran, Chief Corcoran of the Police
18 Department to give you the police reports,
19 right? Let me show you. This is P-186. Is
20 that your signature on this letter?
21 A Yes, it's my signature on the letter,
22 sir.
23 Q Okay. And did you write this
24 letter?
25 A Yes, sir.
00090
1 Q And dated April 30th, 2004, right?
2 A That's correct, sir.
3 Q And it's from you to Chief Dennis
4 Corcoran of the Secaucus Police Department,
5 right?
6 A That's correct, sir.
7 Q And on April 30th, 2004 you are
8 saying, "It's been brought to my attention that
9 your office is looking into an incident that
10 took place on the morning of April 25th
11 involving members of the Secaucus Volunteer Fire
12 Department and the possible allegation of a bias
13 act." That's what you wrote right?
14 A That is correct, sir.
15 Q "As I am sure you are aware, I
16 serve as the Town's Equal Opportunity compliance
17 officer; and it is my direct responsibility to
18 review, examine and act on any and all
19 complaints pertaining to Secaucus employees and
20 its agents." You wrote that too, right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And then you wrote to the Chief on
23 that date, April 30th, "Please forward all
24 written correspondence and reports to my office,
25 so I may include them in my findings and report
00091
1 to the Mayor and Council." You wrote that,
2 right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And you wrote that on April 30th,
5 right?
6 A This would be my first written
7 correspondence, yes.
8 Q To the Police Department, right?
9 A First written correspondence, yes.
10 Q Okay. Getting back to that letter
11 of May 10th from the Attorney General's Office
12 and that paragraph that you said meant the
13 municipality should do nothing, that
14 paragraph -- and I will give you the whole
15 letter. That letter doesn't say -- that -- that
16 letter doesn't prohibit the Town from closing
17 the social wing of the Fire Department, does it?
18 A I apologize, could you ask that question
19 again?
20 Q I will have it read back to you.
21 A Thank you.
22 (Whereupon, the requested portion
23 is read back by the reporter as follows:
24 "QUESTION: That letter doesn't
25 prohibit the Town from closing the social
00092
1 wing of the Fire Department, does it?")
2 BY MR. MULLIN:
3 A No, it does not prohibit the Town from
4 closing the firehouse, no, no, sir.
5 Q That letter doesn't prohibit the
6 Town of Secaucus from transferring some of the
7 firemen in the North End Firehouse who were at
8 the party to other firehouses? It doesn't
9 prohibit that kind of conduct, right?
10 A Transferring a firefighter from one
11 department to another department is a whole
12 nother complex --
13 Q Not to another department. I said
14 transferring a firefighter from one firehouse to
15 another firehouse. That letter doesn't prohibit
16 that action, correct?
17 A That's a whole nother complex procedure,
18 no, sir.
19 Q Does that letter prohibit
20 transferring a firefighter from one house to
21 another house?
22 A Not that letter, no, sir.
23 Q Okay. That letter doesn't
24 prohibit barring all parties and all drinking at
25 the North End Firehouse, true?
00093
1 A The letter, no, sir.
2 Q And that letter says, "Don't take
3 any action in connection with this statute" --
4 and you don't know what the statute means --
5 "until you hear further notification that our
6 investigation is complete," right?
7 A This was --
8 Q That letter.
9 A This was the first written correspondence
10 of direction from the Attorney General's Office.
11 Prior to the letter there was verbal direction.
12 Q Well, that's not the question I
13 asked, is it? Shall I ask you my question
14 again?
15 A No, but it was an answer to the question.
16 Q Okay. This -- let me get back to
17 my question. This paragraph that you read to
18 the jury says that the Town should withhold
19 administrative action under some statute you
20 don't -- you don't know --
21 A Correct.
22 Q -- pending notification from the
23 Division of Criminal Justice that their
24 investigation has been completed, right? That's
25 what it says, right?
00094
1 A Absolutely.
2 Q Now, at some point did you learn
3 that the Town -- that the Attorney General had
4 finished its investigation?
5 A At some point --
6 Q At some point did you learn that
7 the Attorney General had finished their
8 investigation?
9 A Oh, yes.
10 Q That would be around July 2005,
11 like about a year later, right?
12 A I'm sure that -- I'm sure your estimate
13 of the time is correct.
14 Q Okay. So from that point forward,
15 July 2005 up to when you left Secaucus, which I
16 think you said was sometime in 2007?
17 A Oh, yeah, I left this past September,
18 less than a year ago, sir.
19 Q You didn't write any letters
20 recommending that the individuals who were
21 present at this incident on April 25th be fired
22 or suspended, right? You didn't write any
23 letters to that effect during that time period?
24 A Of course not.
25 Q You didn't -- you didn't write any
00095
1 investigative report concerning the incident of
2 April 25th, 2004 during that time period, after
3 this -- the Attorney General's investigation
4 ended until you left Secaucus, right? In that
5 period you didn't write an investigative report,
6 right?
7 A Based on the direction I received, no,
8 sir.
9 Q I didn't ask you that.
10 A What did you ask me?
11 Q I don't want you to give me
12 hearsay about what somebody -- you claim someone
13 else told you. I asked you whether you wrote a
14 report, an investigative report reflecting your
15 researching and digging into what happened on
16 April 25th, 2004. You didn't write such a
17 report, true, during that time period, true?
18 A I was told not to.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, don't address
20 your answers --
21 MR. MULLIN: I am going to ask
22 that that answer be stricken.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
24 MR. MULLIN: I am going to ask the
25 Court direct this witness to answer my
00096
1 questions, Your Honor.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: The last answer is
3 stricken.
4 And I am going to ask, please,
5 that you answer the questions that are being
6 asked by Mr. Mullin. There may be --
7 THE WITNESS: I'm trying my best.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Hold on. There may
9 be other things you wish to say; but as we tell
10 every witness, your attorneys are here and very
11 competent. And they will address those issues,
12 if they should properly be addressed.
13 THE WITNESS: Correct.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Please read back --
15 do you wish the last question read back,
16 Mr. Mullin?
17 MR. MULLIN: I will rephrase.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
19 MR. MULLIN: I will restate it.
20 BY MR. MULLIN:
21 Q I want to -- sir, I'm talking
22 about the period when you learned that in July
23 '05 that the State had finished their
24 investigation into this incident, they had
25 closed their investigation, up until the time
00097
1 you left and went to another job. During that
2 period you did not prepare a written
3 investigative report as the EEO compliance
4 officer detailing the results of any
5 investigation into what happened at the
6 residence of deVries and Carter on April 25th,
7 2004; isn't that true? Yes or no?
8 A Yes, it's true.
9 MR. MULLIN: Just give me one
10 minute.
11 Q You referred to information you
12 learned, what the Office of the Attorney General
13 said, in one of your answers. Are you aware
14 that the Office of the Attorney General told
15 Chief Corcoran on October 18th, 2004 that the
16 Attorney General was only looking into the
17 incident of April 25th, 2004, that as to
18 everything that happened after that the Town of
19 Secaucus never lost jurisdiction? Are you aware
20 of that?
21 A Not necessarily, no.
22 Q Here is a letter. This is
23 Plaintiff's Exhibit 23. It's a letter of
24 October 18, 2004 to Chief Corcoran from
25 Hester Agudosi, Deputy Attorney General. This
00098
1 letter that I have is not copied to you. So I'm
2 just asking you: Did Chief Corcoran ever
3 discuss the point made in this letter, that the
4 Town of Secaucus continued to be responsible for
5 all the incidents that happened after
6 April 25th, 2004?
7 A The Chief never discussed that directly
8 with me, sir, no.
9 Q You talked about how some aspect
10 of these volunteer fire companies, well, it's
11 like a not-for-profit. So did I understand you
12 correctly during your testimony?
13 A I believe three out of the fire companies
14 have 501(3)c certification.
15 Q How about the North End Fire
16 Company?
17 A They do, sir.
18 Q Do they have that?
19 A They do, sir.
20 Q In spite of that -- strike that.
21 You also referred the jury to the
22 Secaucus Code, right?
23 A The municipal code, sir.
24 Q That's right.
25 A That's correct, sir.
00099
1 Q And Chapter 12 of that code, well,
2 that concerns the Fire Department, right?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And that code gives power to the
5 Town Council and Mayor to approve or disapprove
6 the hiring of any new firemen, right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And that code says that firemen --
9 firefighters have to meet and continue to meet a
10 series of requirements, including one you
11 referred to, being of good moral character and
12 not acting or having acted in any way to reflect
13 unfavorably upon the Secaucus Volunteer Fire
14 Department or the Town of Secaucus, true?
15 A That's correct, sir.
16 Q And that code provides that fire
17 companies may only be established with the
18 consent of the Mayor and the Council of the Town
19 of Secaucus, right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q That's the code that says that
22 after the firefighters and certain firehouses
23 elect someone to the position of battalion
24 chief, they are declared elected subject only to
25 the approval of the Mayor and Council and such
00100
1 person shall be confirmed by the Mayor and
2 Council; or the Mayor and Council may choose for
3 good cause not to confirm such person, right?
4 That's also in that code, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. Mayor and Town Council even
7 have control over the bylaws passed by each fire
8 company's house, right? That has to be approved
9 by the Mayor and Council; isn't that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And all rules and regulations
12 created by the Fire Chief, they have to be
13 approved by the Mayor and the Town Council under
14 the Secaucus Code, right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When it comes to suspensions or
17 expulsions of firefighters, appeals concerning
18 such matters go all the way up to the Mayor and
19 the Council, right?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And in addition to disciplinary
22 action that's authorized to be taken directly
23 by, say, the Fire Chief, the Mayor and Council
24 may, under appropriate circumstances, employ the
25 following disciplinary actions: They can give a
00101
1 firefighter an oral or written reprimand, a fine
2 not to exceed $500, suspension from duty,
3 reduction in grade, permanent expulsion from the
4 Department, right? The Mayor and Council of
5 Secaucus had all those powers with respect to
6 disciplining firefighters, true?
7 A Correct.
8 Q The Secaucus Code provides that
9 any firefighter may transfer from one fire
10 company to another fire company in the Town,
11 provided that such transfer is approved by the
12 Mayor and Council upon the recommendation of the
13 Fire Chief, true?
14 A Correct.
15 Q The Secaucus Code provides that
16 the Mayor and Council of the Town of Secaucus
17 may, at their sole discretion, suspend or
18 disband any company from service, if it is
19 deemed to be in the best interests of the Town,
20 true?
21 A Correct.
22 Q While you were still Town
23 administrator in Secaucus, at the end of 2006
24 the Mayor and Town Council approved the
25 promotion of Chuck Snyder, Jr. to the position
00102
1 of battalion chief, true?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Just one or two more questions.
4 This May 3rd, 2004 letter that you wrote to
5 Carter and deVries where you introduced
6 yourself, right, and asked them if they would
7 want to come talk to you, right, that's what you
8 wrote, right?
9 A Introductory letter, yes, sir.
10 Q Let's give a site for the record.
11 D-308. In that letter where you asked them to
12 come and speak to you, you never mentioned in
13 that letter to Tim Carter and Peter deVries that
14 you had been and were at that moment a volunteer
15 firefighter for the Town of Secaucus, true?
16 A True.
17 Q You told -- you told this -- in
18 answer to a question by Mr. Bevere, you told
19 this jury, quote, "I knew all of the members,"
20 referring to the North End Fire Company, "but I
21 wouldn't consider that I went out with them
22 socially, no." And your answer was no, right?
23 A That's correct, sir.
24 Q When I took your deposition -- or
25 when lawyer from my office took your deposition
00103
1 on July 7th, 2006, you had just recently played
2 golf with North End firefighters Danny Snyder,
3 Richie Johnson and Matthew Kickey; isn't that
4 true?
5 A That's not correct, sir. I remember
6 that.
7 Q Well, maybe I'll direct you to
8 your deposition testimony, page 28. Here is
9 your deposition. You can turn to page 28. And
10 it's going to be --
11 MR. PARIS: Can we have a line,
12 please?
13 Q -- line -- let's start at -- let's
14 start at page 27, line 21, which is an answer by
15 you. And you can follow along.
16 Answer you give is: Do I consider some
17 of the Secaucus officers --
18 MR. PARIS: Excuse me, Your Honor.
19 Can we have a question and then answer, rather
20 than just answers?
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Please back it up
22 to page 27.
23 BY MR. MULLIN:
24 Q Let me back it all the way up to a
25 question, your question. The question, I think,
00104
1 is page 27, line 12. So this is a question.
2 Question, "Do you socialize with any
3 Secaucus Police Officers?"
4 Your answer is, "Yes."
5 And the next question is, "Which
6 firefighters do you socialize with?"
7 And your answer was, "Can you define
8 'socialize with?'"
9 And the question was, "Go out for
10 drinks, have dinner, have them to your house, go
11 to their house, any of those things. Doesn't
12 have to be all four."
13 And your answer was, "Do I consider
14 some of the Secaucus officers and firefighters
15 my friends? Yes, I do. Yes. Do I occasionally
16 play golf with both firefighters and police
17 officers? Yes. Have I been to dinner with both
18 police and fire occasionally? Occasionally,
19 yes."
20 Right? Right? Have I read your
21 answers correctly so far?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And the next question is, "Let's
24 start with, Engine 2. Well, Engine 2 is housed
25 at the North End firehouse station; is that
00105
1 correct?"
2 A That's correct.
3 Q "Have you ever played golf with
4 any members of Engine 2?"
5 And your answer was, "Directly with
6 that individual or at a golf outing?"
7 Question was, "Let's start with
8 individually."
9 Answer, "Individually, no."
10 Question, "As part of a golf outing?"
11 And your answer is, "Yes." You see
12 that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And then the question was, "And
15 who would that be?"
16 "Just most recently the Secaucus High
17 School Booster Club had a golf outing; and there
18 had to be at least three, maybe four members
19 from Engine 2 at the same golf outing that I was
20 at."
21 And then the question is, "Okay. Do
22 you know which members?"
23 And your answer is, "Danny Snyder,
24 Richie Johnson, Matthew Kickey. There may have
25 been another one that I'm forgetting, though.
00106
1 Three I remember specifically seeing at the golf
2 outing."
3 And that was your testimony, right?
4 A That's 100 percent correct, seeing at the
5 golf outing.
6 Q Okay. Have you ever been to
7 Councilman Kickey's house, Bobby Kickey's house?
8 A I have been to Councilman Kickey's house,
9 yes.
10 Q And while you were there you've at
11 least seen Matt Kickey, right?
12 A Matt Kickey, who is the son of Councilman
13 Kickey, lives at that house; and while I was
14 having dinner with Councilman Kickey and his
15 wife and my wife at the time, I believe Matt
16 passed through the dining room.
17 Q Passed through the dining room.
18 Sir, during your entire tenure at the
19 Secaucus -- at the Town of Secaucus as Town
20 Administrator, following the April 25th, 2004
21 incident, you never wrote a letter recommending
22 the firing or termination of any of the North
23 End firefighters, true?
24 A True.
25 Q You never suspended -- you never
00107
1 wrote a written reprimand of such firefighters
2 or directed the Chief or suggested to the Chief
3 in writing that he should publicly reprimand
4 some of these firefighters, true?
5 A True.
6 Q That's true, isn't it?
7 A True. We're pertaining --
8 Q You never --
9 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I think he was
10 trying to clarify his answer. We should give
11 him that opportunity.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
13 MR. MULLIN: Yes or no? I asked a
14 yes or no question. Counsel can ask redirect on
15 that.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't even
17 understand the question.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: You don't
19 understand the question?
20 BY MR. MULLIN:
21 Q You don't understand the question?
22 A Is it pertaining to the incident that
23 happened in April of?
24 Q April 25th, that's what I'm
25 asking, as to that incident.
00108
1 A Okay. I have never recommended or
2 suggested termination or expulsion from a Fire
3 Department of any firefighter.
4 Q In connection with that incident?
5 A In connection with that incident.
6 Q Or in connection with any
7 incidents that are alleged to have followed that
8 related to the residence of where Carter and
9 deVries lived, true?
10 A That's true.
11 Q That's it, thank you.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
14 Q Mr. Iacono, are you aware of any
15 volunteer firefighter being connected with any
16 incident of harassment against Mr. deVries or
17 Mr. Carter after April 25th, 2004?
18 A Absolutely not.
19 Q Now, I want to ask you about this
20 golf outing. How many people were at this golf
21 outing?
22 A I'm sure there had to be close to a
23 hundred and -- somewhere between 125, 150
24 golfers.
25 Q What were the purpose of the golf
00109
1 outing?
2 A To raise money for the Secaucus High
3 School Booster Club.
4 Q And on that day did you play golf
5 individually with Daniel Snyder or any of the
6 persons mentioned by Mr. Mullin?
7 A No.
8 Q Who did you golf with that day?
9 A If I remember correctly, I golfed with my
10 brother-in-law. I golfed with a friend that I
11 grew up in Weehawken with and another relative
12 from Jersey City.
13 Q Now, Mr. Mullin asked you whether
14 you had ever written a letter recommending that
15 anyone be suspended or disciplined after July of
16 2005 when the Attorney General closed their
17 investigation. And your answer was no. And
18 what I want to know is why?
19 A The answer is simple. This was reviewed
20 by three levels of law enforcement. Locally, it
21 was reviewed on a county level with the Hudson
22 County Prosecutors and also by the State
23 Attorney General's Office. And after three law
24 enforcement agencies thoroughly investigating,
25 reviewing, came back with a no bill and did not
00110
1 proceed.
2 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
4 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Strike --
6 MR. MULLIN: Move to strike.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: I am going to
8 strike it. You can go to sidebar, if you'd
9 like.
10 MR. MULLIN: I would like a
11 curative instruction too.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Hold on. I am
13 going to strike the last part of that answer.
14 There is, as we have indicated before, Ladies
15 and Gentlemen, no information in this record as
16 to any action or inaction taken by Grand Jury.
17 BY MR. BEVERE:
18 Q Without reference to anything that
19 the Grand Jury may or may not have done, give us
20 your reasons as to why you didn't write any
21 letters recommending any discipline.
22 A There has never been anything provided to
23 me, as the EEO officer or as the Town
24 Administrator, that would give me any kind of
25 concrete evidence to pursue.
00111
1 Q Was this matter reviewed by the
2 Secaucus Town attorney?
3 A Yes, it was.
4 Q Did the Town seek legal advice
5 from its Town attorney?
6 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
7 Honor. Motion to strike.
8 MR. BEVERE: Judge.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: All right. We will
10 go to sidebar.
11 MR. BEVERE: Judge, you know, I
12 will withdraw the question. He said that it was
13 reviewed by the Town attorney. I will withdraw
14 the question.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
16 BY MR. BEVERE:
17 Q Oh, I'm sorry, you mentioned to
18 Mr. Mullin on cross-examination that your letter
19 of April 30th to Chief Corcoran was your first
20 written correspondence to him. What I want to
21 know is did you have any discussions with Chief
22 Corcoran at or before the time you wrote the
23 report?
24 A I'm sure I was on the phone for --
25 MR. MULLIN: Objection, calls for
00112
1 hearsay.
2 MR. BEVERE: Does not call for
3 hearsay.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: I will overrule it
5 at this point. It may get to that.
6 BY MR. BEVERE:
7 Q Without telling us anything that
8 Chief Corcoran told you, did you have
9 discussions with Chief Corcoran verbally?
10 A I had verbal discussions the entire
11 length of my vacation with public officials that
12 included the Police Chief, the Town attorney,
13 the Mayor, the Deputy Mayor.
14 Q And in regard to -- in the letter
15 dated May 10th, 2004 from the Attorney General's
16 Office, 230, 231, to your knowledge was that
17 reviewed by counsel for the Town?
18 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
19 Honor, asking what was reviewed by Town --
20 MR. BEVERE: Reviewed, not
21 approved. Was it reviewed by counsel?
22 MR. MULLIN: Objection. You are
23 asking this witness what someone else reviewed.
24 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, can we be
25 heard at sidebar?
00113
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Sidebar.
2 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
3 discussion is held.)
4 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, I asked --
5 excuse me, I asked for this sidebar. The
6 witness is being asked if things were reviewed
7 by counsel. There has only been an objection as
8 to what counsel may have told him. But whether
9 or not things were reviewed by counsel is
10 absolutely a fair question. If this witness
11 provided this letter to -- to the Town attorney
12 to review, why would that be hearsay? Why is
13 that not evidentiary, if he provided that
14 letter?
15 MR. MULLIN: That wasn't the
16 question. It wasn't whether it was provided to
17 counsel; it was whether counsel reviewed it.
18 MR. PARIS: Whether counsel
19 reviewed it.
20 MR. BEVERE: I will ask him if he
21 is aware.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin.
23 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, he didn't
24 ask the question whether he did, this witness
25 knew whether or not counsel reviewed it. He can
00114
1 testify what he did, if he gave it to counsel;
2 and that's the end of it.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: It was a simple --
4 I thought, frankly, we were just going to change
5 the word on it.
6 MR. BEVERE: I didn't ask for the
7 sidebar.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: What?
9 MR. BEVERE: I didn't ask for the
10 sidebar.
11 MR. PARIS: I did. I guess what
12 my concern is this witness has been asked
13 questions whether things were reviewed with
14 counsel or not and there have been objections
15 along those lines.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: If the question had
17 been: Did you give this or do you know if
18 someone else gave this to the counsel to review,
19 that would be fine; but he doesn't know whether
20 or not counsel reviewed it.
21 MR. BEVERE: I understand. Not a
22 problem.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: That is the only
24 problem.
25 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
00115
1 concluded.)
2 MR. BEVERE: I will rephrase, Your
3 Honor.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Thank
5 you.
6 BY MR. BEVERE:
7 Q Mr. Iacono, do you know whether
8 this letter was provided to counsel for the Town
9 of Secaucus to review?
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q Thank you.
12 MR. BEVERE: I have no further
13 questions, thank you, Your Honor.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin.
15 RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
16 Q Sir, you said that the reason you
17 took no action against these firefighters was
18 because three police agencies had looked at the
19 matter and had -- and there hadn't been a
20 finding of criminal liability, essentially, is
21 what you were saying; is that right, sir?
22 A There was no charges ever pressed.
23 Q Okay. Now let me talk to you
24 about -- well, let's put it this way. When
25 you're running a Town, it's not the case that
00116
1 for you to fire or suspend someone they have to
2 be guilty of a crime, right?
3 A Absolutely.
4 Q I mean, you could fire or suspend
5 people because they, like the code says, bring
6 a -- bring bad repute to the Town, right?
7 Behave in a way that brings -- brings moral
8 disrepute to the Town, right?
9 A Could --
10 Q I am talking about the Town.
11 A Yes.
12 Q Firefighters can be fired and
13 disciplined without -- and disciplined even if
14 they didn't commit a crime, right?
15 A If -- absolutely, if they were found
16 guilty.
17 Q So it makes absolutely no sense
18 when you tell this jury the reason you didn't
19 take administrative action against these
20 firefighters, like firing or suspending or
21 penalizing them, is because they weren't found
22 to be guilty of a crime, right? That makes no
23 sense, right?
24 MR. BEVERE: Objection --
25 A No.
00117
1 MR. BEVERE: -- argumentative and
2 characterization.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: I will sustain it
4 on characterization.
5 BY MR. MULLIN:
6 Q In fact, Police Chief Corcoran,
7 who reported to you on May 7th, without finding
8 Chuck Snyder, Jr. guilty of a crime terminated
9 his services or ended his services as a Police
10 dispatcher at the Police Department, true?
11 MR. BEVERE: Objection to the
12 characterization.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Which --
14 MR. MULLIN: D-292.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Yeah, I got that.
16 I believe the objection is to the word
17 "terminated."
18 MR. BEVERE: And to "ended," as
19 well.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Ended.
21 MR. BEVERE: I look at it --
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Please re -- please
23 rephrase the question.
24 MR. MULLIN: I will rephrase the
25 question.
00118
1 BY MR. MULLIN:
2 Q Are you aware that under date of
3 May 7, 2004 Police Chief Dennis Corcoran writing
4 to then dispatcher Chuck Snyder, Jr. said, "It
5 is undisputed you were present at the North End
6 Firehouse on April 25th, 2004 when certain
7 incidents took place. These incidents are
8 currently under investigation as a bias crime.
9 It's further undisputed that you determined to
10 refuse to cooperate with the officers from this
11 department who are attempting to investigate
12 that incident. In light of these facts it is my
13 conclusion that your continued service as a
14 dispatcher pending the outcome of the current
15 investigation would do a potential disservice to
16 the public trust of the Secaucus Police
17 Department." And then he says at the bottom,
18 "Therefore, please be advised that as a per diem
19 employee you will not be assigned any hours
20 until the matter and your role therein is
21 resolved. Copy to Mayor Dennis Elwell."
22 My question is: Are you aware that
23 Chief Corcoran, while he reported to you, took
24 that action against Chuck Snyder, Jr.? Are you
25 aware of that, that he took that action?
00119
1 A Now that you read that, I -- I recall --
2 I recall an action that the Chief took in
3 reference to the ongoing investigation.
4 Q Okay. And Chuck Snyder, Jr. at
5 that point, on May 7th, well, he wasn't
6 convicted of some crime in connection with
7 April 25th, 2004, right, at that time?
8 A Could you read the last part?
9 Q At that time, on May 7th, when
10 Chief Corcoran suspended him or did whatever
11 this letter says, Chuck Snyder, Jr. hadn't been
12 convicted of some crime in connection with the
13 incident of April 25, 2004, true, at that time?
14 A That's -- that's correct.
15 Q And yet Chief Corcoran took this
16 action against him, true?
17 A True.
18 Q And so it was possible for you and
19 it was possible for the Town of Secaucus, even
20 without these men at the North End Firehouse
21 being convicted of a crime in connection with
22 April 25th, 2004, it was possible under the Town
23 ordinance to suspend them or otherwise
24 discipline them, true?
25 A No, that's not true.
00120
1 Q Did Chief Corcoran violate the law
2 by doing this?
3 A Chief --
4 Q Yes or no?
5 A The Chief had information that I wouldn't
6 have.
7 Q Well, you never got the police
8 reports, did you?
9 A No.
10 Q So you never got the police
11 reports that said Peter deVries called 911 and
12 said there were three men out -- when he woke up
13 and came down, he heard three voices threatening
14 things like to kill him; you never -- you
15 never -- you never heard that, right?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q You never read Patrolman Ulrich's
18 report saying I arrived on the scene immediately
19 and there were three men in the parking lot, one
20 of them screaming at -- at Tim Carter? You
21 never -- you never read that, did you, or heard
22 that, did you?
23 A As it pertaining to the volunteer
24 department?
25 Q Yes, sir.
00121
1 A No, sir.
2 Q You never read a report where --
3 where -- where Officer Ulrich said the three men
4 I found in the parking lot that night, that
5 early morning -- the early morning of
6 April 25th, 2004, well, they were the two
7 Snyders and Charles Mutschler, right?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Because you never looked at the
10 reports, right?
11 A I wouldn't have access to police reports.
12 Q Well, you requested them, right?
13 A I did not have access to police reports.
14 Q Are you saying you wrote a letter
15 requesting them and you really didn't have any
16 right to see them?
17 A By the time the letter was received to
18 the Chief I was given instructions by the
19 Attorney General's Office.
20 Q I don't want your hearsay. I
21 asked --
22 MR. BEVERE: Judge, he was
23 testifying as to what -- the question was why
24 did he did not take certain action? He was
25 answering the question as to what was in his
00122
1 mind as to why he did not take action.
2 MR. MULLIN: That wasn't the
3 question.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: I -- okay. I'm
5 going to sustain that objection. You can
6 rephrase or repeat the question.
7 BY MR. MULLIN:
8 Q I asked you: Are you saying you
9 write a letter to Chief Corcoran requesting
10 documents, but you really didn't have a right to
11 see them? That was my question to you.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Is that a yes or no
13 question?
14 MR. MULLIN: That's a yes or no
15 question.
16 BY MR. MULLIN:
17 Q Let me put the question more
18 clearly for you. At the time you wrote the
19 letter of April 30th, 2004 to Chief Corcoran
20 requesting that you see police reports and
21 documents, did you actually know at that moment
22 that you weren't allowed to see the documents
23 you were requesting he send you?
24 A Did I have a right to them, or did I
25 receive them? I don't -- I don't understand the
00123
1 question.
2 Q Are you telling this jury that on
3 April 30th, 2004 you didn't have a right to see
4 police reports that you requested in your
5 letter?
6 A The -- everything that I requested
7 pertaining to April 24th?
8 Q And 25th, right, the early morning
9 hours --
10 A I'm sorry, the early morning hours of the
11 25th?
12 Q And you had a right to see those
13 documents at that time?
14 MR. PARIS: Objection, Your Honor.
15 It's calling for a legal conclusion. Calls for
16 legal conclusion.
17 MR. MULLIN: He gave an opinion
18 that he didn't --
19 MR. PARIS: It was an active
20 criminal investigation.
21 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
22 Honor.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: You are quite
24 right, but the witness actually put the issue on
25 the record by indicating about 18 questions ago
00124
1 what his opinion was regarding given that.
2 Frankly, it's asked and answered.
3 MR. MULLIN: Asked and answered.
4 I will move on to another topic.
5 BY MR. MULLIN:
6 Q Are you telling this jury that the
7 Mayor, the Chief of Police, the Fire Chief, no
8 one in the Town leadership ever told you that
9 sometime in November 2004 directly across the
10 street from the engine house of the North End
11 Fire Company someone sprayed in shaving cream
12 the words, "El Homo"? No one ever told you
13 that?
14 A No.
15 Q That's all I have.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
17 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
18 Q Mr. Iacono, in July of 2005 or
19 thereabouts, when the Town was made aware that
20 the Attorney General's investigation was closed,
21 did you seek legal advice from the Town attorney
22 in regard to the issue of discipline?
23 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
24 A Absolutely.
25 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, calls for
00125
1 hearsay.
2 MR. BEVERE: I asked him if he
3 sought advice.
4 MR. MULLIN: Asking the substance.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: I got it. I am
6 going to overrule the objection on that
7 question, only that question. His answer is on
8 the record.
9 BY MR. BEVERE:
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q And without telling us what advice
12 was received, did you receive legal advice?
13 A Absolutely.
14 MR. BEVERE: I have no further
15 questions.
16 FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
17 Q Yes or no; did this legal advice
18 come to you in the form of something written?
19 A I have to say, "yes" or, "no"? I can't
20 say, "I don't recall"?
21 Q You can say you don't recall.
22 A Well, then I am going to say I don't
23 recall.
24 Q You have no recollection as you
25 sit here today of getting some legal advice in
00126
1 writing concerning the topic?
2 A July 2005?
3 Q July 2005.
4 A After the Attorney General came out with
5 their opinion --
6 Q There is no opinion from the
7 Attorney General's --
8 JUDGE CURRAN: I am going to ask
9 you please not keep referring to the Attorney
10 General.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I don't
12 understand the question. I'm sorry.
13 BY MR. MULLIN:
14 Q I am asking a real simple
15 question.
16 A Yes.
17 Q You say that you got some legal
18 advice, true?
19 A Absolutely.
20 Q You say, "Absolutely." Is there a
21 piece of paper sent to you reflecting that legal
22 advice?
23 A I don't recall --
24 Q You don't recall?
25 A -- the paper.
00127
1 JUDGE CURRAN: I am going to go
2 back and strike the answer as to an Attorney
3 General's opinion. There is no Attorney
4 General's opinion. So, again, Ladies and
5 Gentlemen, you understand I am just striking
6 that part of the answer.
7 I'm sorry. If you had additional
8 questions, Mr. Mullin.
9 MR. MULLIN: No, I have no further
10 questions.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere?
12 MR. BEVERE: No further questions,
13 Your Honor.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Is there anyone on
15 the jury who has any questions for this witness?
16 If so, if you will please indicate it, just
17 raise your hand or -- okay. Is there anyone who
18 has a question for this witness?
19 Thank you. The witness may step
20 down.
21 When we do need a lunch break, we
22 need to have the cards and the pencils, so the
23 jury can write a question.
24 Thank you. Mr. Bevere? I'm
25 sorry. Mr. Paris?
00128
1 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I would say we
2 take a lunch break now, as opposed to starting
3 Detective DeGennaro for a half hour.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Any objection?
5 MR. MULLIN: No objection, Your
6 Honor.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: All right. Ladies
8 and Gentlemen, we will allow you to have a lunch
9 break, so you can go someplace and get warmed
10 up. I would appreciate it if you would be back
11 at 1:00.
12 Again I will remind you please do
13 not discuss the case with anyone else nor among
14 yourselves.
15 Off the record.
16 (Whereupon, the jury is excused
17 for lunch.)
18 JUDGE CURRAN: On the record,
19 please. Miss Smith, if you would repeat your
20 request on the record, please.
21 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
22 My request is that there be one lawyer per
23 witness on both sides.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
25 I will note for the record that
00129
1 the jury has been excused but all counsel are in
2 court.
3 Mr. Paris.
4 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, if that
5 request was going to be made, it should have
6 been made at the very beginning of the case.
7 COURT CLERK: Juror -- two.
8 (Whereupon, two jurors enter the
9 courtroom.)
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
11 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, that
12 request should have been made at the beginning
13 of the case, not when the defense now has an
14 opportunity to put its witnesses on. We have
15 not -- we have not had more than one witness --
16 more than one attorney doing cross-examination,
17 haven't had more than one attorney doing direct,
18 that sort of thing. So I would object to this
19 request being made at this point in time, rather
20 than having it be made at the beginning of the
21 trial.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Miss Smith, could
23 you clarify your request for me?
24 MS. SMITH: Well, one person
25 should do objections. In -- the plaintiffs'
00130
1 case is over, but it's -- the record will be
2 abundantly clear, whoever's witness it was, that
3 was the person who did objections. We have Mr.
4 Bevere with a witness on the stand, and we have
5 Mr. Paris making objections. I'm simply
6 requesting that, as we have done on the
7 plaintiffs' side, that there be one lawyer per
8 witness, you don't be double-teamed on one
9 individual witness.
10 MR. PARIS: I really don't see
11 this as double-teaming any individual witness.
12 We are not doing testimony by two attorneys, not
13 doing cross-examination by two attorneys. And
14 that -- that's really all that I have to say.
15 If this request was going to be made, I think it
16 should have been made at the beginning of the
17 trial.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere, do you
19 wish to say anything?
20 MR. BEVERE: Nothing.
21 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, if we
22 went Mr. Paris' way, Miss Smith and I can jump
23 up during any witness and make an objection; it
24 doesn't matter whose charged with
25 cross-examining. That's -- that's the rule he
00131
1 is asking for. I think that adds to a certain
2 flare of chaos. I have never done it. We have
3 never done it. They are doing it. But I don't
4 even think that benefits the defense.
5 I mean, what he is saying is that
6 either of the two lawyers on each side of the
7 table can jump up and object, instead of -- you
8 know, usually it's the lawyer who's questioning
9 who also makes the objections. Even -- you
10 know, when I finish questioning and I sit down,
11 Mr. Bevere gets up, then I make the objection.
12 But it creates chaos in the courtroom to have
13 two lawyers jumping up.
14 MR. PARIS: If that's their
15 understanding and that's the way they have been
16 proceeding, with that understanding --
17 I mean, is that what your
18 understanding has been in proceeding?
19 If that's their understanding and
20 that's the way they have been proceeding up to
21 this point in the trial, then we will agree.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
23 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
24 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Off the record.
00132
1 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
2 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess is
3 taken.)
4 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
5 JUDGE CURRAN: We're back on the
6 record.
7 Mr. Mullin.
8 MR. MULLIN: Yes, Your Honor, I
9 just want to once again remind -- have the Court
10 remind counsel and have counsel remind the
11 witness, Detective DeGennaro, not to refer to
12 the fact that his best friend, as he put it, is
13 gay, that there should be no references to
14 relatives or friends or people he knows who are
15 gay. That was Your Honor's in limine ruling. I
16 just want to make sure it's implemented.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
18 MR. BEVERE: Oh, yeah, Judge, I'm
19 sorry, I will remind him. I told him yesterday,
20 but I will remind him again.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
22 MR. MULLIN: Thank you, Your
23 Honor. That's all I have.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Is there any
25 objection to bringing out the jury?
00133
1 MR. BEVERE: Judge, can I just
2 have one second?
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure, sure. I am
4 not trying to rush you.
5 COURT CLERK: Bring the jurors
6 out?
7 JUDGE CURRAN: No.
8 COURT CLERK: Okay.
9 MR. BEVERE: Judge, let me just
10 run out and remind the detective; and then I'll
11 bring him in.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
13 Thank you. We will bring out the
14 jury.
15 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
16 approaching.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
18 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
19 into the courtroom.)
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, Ladies
21 and Gentlemen. We appreciate your being back on
22 time. We are back on the record.
23 MS. HAWKS: Raise your right hand.
24 Place your left hand on the Bible.
25 D E T. S G T. D O M I N I C D E G E N N A R O
00134
1 is duly sworn by a Notary Public of the
2 State of New Jersey and testifies under
3 oath as follows:
4 MS. HAWKS: For the record, please
5 state your full name and spell your last name,
6 please.
7 THE WITNESS: My first name is
8 Dominic. My last name is DeGennaro.
9 D-e-G-e-n-n-a-r-o. And I am a Detective
10 Sergeant with the Secaucus Police.
11 MS. HAWKS: Thank you. You may be
12 seated.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 MS. HAWKS: Do you want some
15 water?
16 THE WITNESS: No, thank you.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Move a little
18 closer to the microphone --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: -- if you can.
21 Thank you. You are under oath. All your
22 testimony must be truthful and accurate to the
23 best of your ability. Do you understand?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Please
00135
1 give us your address for the record.
2 THE WITNESS: My home address is
3 1119 Lake Avenue in Clark, New Jersey.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
5 Your witness, Mr. Bevere.
6 MR. BEVERE: Thank you, Your
7 Honor.
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
9 Q Detective, by whom are you
10 employed?
11 A The Secaucus Police Department.
12 Q And what is your position there?
13 A I am a Detective Sergeant.
14 Q And how long have you been a
15 Detective Sergeant?
16 A About four years now.
17 Q And how long have you been with
18 the Secaucus Police Department total?
19 A I am in my 18th year.
20 Q And what other positions have you
21 held within the Department?
22 A Nine years in Patrol as a patrol officer.
23 Then I did some time as just a regular
24 detective, and then I got promoted to sergeant.
25 Q And as a detective just give us a
00136
1 general overview of your duties and
2 responsibilities.
3 A Well, we have a captain in charge of us.
4 And what he does, he assigns case -- cases to us
5 to follow up on. And that's our main
6 responsibility.
7 Q And just -- do you have any
8 specialized training as a detective?
9 A I have gone to numerous in-service
10 training classes on a variety of subjects. I'm
11 also the firearms instructor for the Police
12 Department. That's about it.
13 Q Were you working for the Secaucus
14 Detective Bureau in April 2004?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And what was your shift at that
17 time?
18 A I worked 4 p.m. to midnight, Tuesdays
19 through Saturdays.
20 Q Was there a detective that you
21 typically worked with back in April of 2004?
22 A Yes, my partner is Lieutenant Mike
23 Reinke.
24 Q Now, at some point were you
25 assigned to investigation of an incident that
00137
1 occurred in the early morning hours of
2 April 25th, 2004?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you recall when you were first
5 assigned to that investigation?
6 A I believe it was two days after the
7 incident was reported.
8 Q And to your knowledge was anyone
9 else assigned to work on the investigation?
10 A Yes, Lieutenant Mike Reinke. And it's
11 Captain Malanka but the -- it was lieutenant at
12 the time. Sergeant Tom O'Keeffe. And I believe
13 that was it.
14 Q And who oversaw the investigation?
15 A Captain John Buckley.
16 Q Now, I'm going to go through some
17 reports of yours. As you are sitting here today
18 without looking at your reports do you have an
19 independent recollection of what it is that you
20 did?
21 A Somewhat, but I may need to refer to the
22 reports to refresh my memory.
23 Q Okay. What I'm going to show you,
24 D-30 for Identification, and ask if you can
25 identify that document?
00138
1 A Yes, I can identify this document. It's
2 a report taken by me on April 28th, 2004.
3 Q And what is the function of that
4 report?
5 A This is basically stating that I
6 conducted a canvas of the -- the area of the
7 incident location for any witnesses.
8 Q And on what date did you conduct a
9 canvas of the location?
10 A The 28th, April.
11 Q At what time?
12 A Between 1950, which is 7:50 p.m. and
13 2035, which is 8:35 p.m.
14 Q And could you tell us what a
15 canvas is?
16 A Basically it's just knocking on doors,
17 ringing doorbells, just asking people if they
18 see -- seen or heard anything about a particular
19 incident.
20 Q And did you make a written record
21 of your canvas?
22 A Yes, we have a -- what's called a "canvas
23 sheet," which we fill out.
24 Q Now, on your police report did you
25 record on your police report, which we have
00139
1 marked as D-30 for Identification, the results
2 of your canvas?
3 A Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry.
4 Q Did you record on your report of
5 April 28, 2004 the results of your canvas?
6 A Yes, yes.
7 Q And what did you note in regard to
8 the canvas? And you can use your report to
9 refresh your recollection.
10 A Of the people I spoke with, nobody had
11 any information regarding the case.
12 Q Did you speak to a woman named
13 Miss Cuprowski?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q Did she have anything to report
16 about the incident, itself?
17 A Yes, she reported that during the summer
18 months the firemen there are extremely loud.
19 Q And you noted that in your report?
20 A Yes.
21 Q I'm going to show you what's been
22 marked as D-31 and D-32 for Identification and
23 ask if you could recognize that document?
24 A Yes, I do recognize these documents.
25 This is our canvas sheet, which we record the
00140
1 results of the canvas, the people we spoke to,
2 the locations, their addresses and whether or
3 not they had any information or if they answered
4 the door or if they didn't have any information.
5 Q And when would you have prepared
6 this canvas sheet in regard to when the canvas
7 was done?
8 A I do it as I'm going along ringing
9 doorbells.
10 Q And the information contained on
11 the canvas sheet, where does that information
12 come from -- or remarks? Where do you get the
13 information?
14 A I'm sorry?
15 Q Where do you get the information
16 from from your canvas sheet?
17 A Well, I write down their addresses; and I
18 ask the people for their names. And I write
19 down if they have any remarks or whether they
20 don't answer the door or have nothing to say
21 about the incident.
22 Q All right. And is -- do you --
23 are you required to prepare a canvas sheet when
24 you conduct a canvas of a neighborhood?
25 A Yes.
00141
1 Q And once the report and the canvas
2 sheet were prepared what would you have done
3 with it?
4 A It gets forwarded to my captain for
5 review, and then it's filed in our records.
6 Q Now, do you recall whether or not
7 you did any other further canvas after your
8 canvas of April 28th, 2004?
9 A No.
10 Q You don't recall, or you did not?
11 A I don't -- no, we did not.
12 Q Now, the next report I'm going to
13 show you is a report dated April 29th. And I
14 have marked as D-63. And if you can tell us
15 what that document is?
16 A Okay. This is another supplemental
17 report that I left on April 29th of '04
18 regarding this incident.
19 Q And does that report state what
20 you did on April 29th of '04?
21 A Yes, I took a formal statement, which is
22 a typed statement from the victim, Tim Carter.
23 Q All right. Now, does your report
24 indicate at what time you met with Mr. Carter?
25 A Approximately 2100 hours, which is 9 p.m.
00142
1 Q And then the report also -- does
2 the report indicate -- or let me ask you it this
3 way. Did you provide Mr. Carter with any
4 information or documents following the
5 interview?
6 A Yes, a -- we have a packet, a Crime
7 Victim Compensation Packet; and I provided him
8 with one.
9 Q Now I am going to show you what I
10 have marked as D-64 and D-65 for Identification.
11 And I'm going to ask you if you recognize this
12 document?
13 A Yes, I recognize this document. This is
14 a copy of the formal statement I took from the
15 victim, Tim Carter.
16 Q All right. And looking at the top
17 of the statement, below address and next to
18 date, there is a designation of time. And can
19 you tell us what time was designated there?
20 A It's 2115 hours, which would be 9:15 p.m.
21 Q And what -- what does that mean?
22 Why did you designate 2115 hours in that spot
23 that says time?
24 A Right at the start of typing the
25 statement I look at the clock and put the
00143
1 beginning time, and that's the -- the beginning
2 time of the statement.
3 Q Tell us how you went about taking
4 Mr. Carter's statement. What was the procedure
5 that you followed?
6 A What do you mean? What I advised him
7 prior to this statement, or what do you mean?
8 Q Let me -- let me ask you a more
9 general question. Before typing the statement
10 did you talk with Mr. Carter?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q And do you recall as you are
13 sitting here today what you and Mr. Carter
14 discussed?
15 A What I -- what I always do with any
16 incident before taking a formal statement, I
17 always talk to the victim or witness just to get
18 an idea of -- of what they're going to tell me
19 because the statements are in question and
20 answer format. So by doing a brief interview I
21 can -- I know which questions basically to ask.
22 Q And then, once you start actually
23 taking a statement, how do you do that?
24 A Well, like I said, it's question and
25 answer. And I'll type a question, then I'll
00144
1 tell the victim or the witness that I'm going to
2 type their answer. I always tell the victims or
3 witnesses, "Just take it slow, one sentence at a
4 time because you will see me struggling to keep
5 up with the typing." But that's it. I type the
6 question. I -- I read that question to the
7 witness or the victim. And then I type their
8 response.
9 Q And then at the bottom of the page
10 there is a signature line?
11 A Yes.
12 Q All right. And did you have
13 Mr. Carter sign the statement?
14 A Yes, first I had him read the statement
15 and make any corrections. And then I asked him
16 if he'd sign it, and he did.
17 Q Did Mr. Carter make corrections to
18 his statement?
19 A Yes, he did.
20 Q And then did Mr. Carter indicate
21 the time that he signed it?
22 A Yes, he did.
23 Q All right. And what time was
24 that?
25 A That's, "10," he wrote, "36 a.m."; but
00145
1 that would have been 10:36 p.m.
2 Q Okay. So would that have been --
3 and what would the 10:36 p.m. represent? What
4 time would that represent?
5 A That's after I get done typing out the
6 whole statement, the responses, after the
7 victim -- the victim had time to review and make
8 corrections and -- and that's basically the end
9 of the interview/statement.
10 Q And how are you as a typist?
11 A I would just say okay. Not bad, not
12 good.
13 Q Now, with regard to I'm going to
14 show you another report -- or I'm going to show
15 you a document I have marked as D-73 for
16 Identification, and I'm going to ask you if you
17 can identify that for the record?
18 A Yes, I can identify this. This is a
19 Secaucus Police Department property evidence
20 report.
21 Q And was that filled out by you?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What date?
24 A It's April 30th of '04.
25 Q And what evidence were you -- what
00146
1 were you putting into Evidence pursuant to this
2 report?
3 A A roll of 35-millimeter film.
4 Q And do you recall what it was that
5 you photographed on April 30th?
6 A Yes, the victims' home and the scene
7 around the victims' home.
8 Q Did anyone accompany you when you
9 photographed the scene and the home and the
10 scene around the home?
11 A I know somebody was with me, but I -- I
12 think it was Mike Reinke. I'm not certain.
13 Q And then you logged the
14 photographs that you took into Evidence?
15 A The film, yes.
16 Q The film?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. Now I'm going to show you a
19 document that I have marked as D-74 for
20 Identification and ask you if you can identify
21 that document?
22 A Yes, I can identify the document. This
23 is another supplemental investigation report
24 filed by me on May 1st of '04.
25 Q And does that document record --
00147
1 record what you did on May 1st in regard to the
2 investigation?
3 A Yes, it does.
4 Q And starting with the first thing
5 you note in your report -- and you can look at
6 it to refresh your recollection -- what was the
7 first thing you did that day in regard to the
8 investigation?
9 A It was an interview of Heather Maxwell.
10 Q And who was Heather Maxwell to
11 your knowledge?
12 A She was at the firehouse on the incident
13 night, so she is potential witness.
14 Q And you took her statement?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Do you recall as you are sitting
17 here today whether she provided you with any
18 information about the incident?
19 A Yeah, she didn't provide me with anything
20 substantial about the incident.
21 Q Did she indicate to you that she
22 knew anything that -- knew of anything -- knew
23 anything that had happened?
24 A No, she stated basically that she was
25 inside the firehouse the whole time and had no
00148
1 idea what was going on. And I believe she said
2 she just saw the cops outside.
3 Q And then we talk about -- going
4 down your report to 1908 hours. Can you tell us
5 what happened at that time?
6 A I received a phone call from Chris
7 Snyder.
8 Q And what did Mr. Snyder indicate
9 to you, if anything, in that phone call?
10 A He said he wasn't at the firehouse on the
11 incident night and basically had nothing to say
12 to me.
13 Q Did you ask him to come down and
14 give a statement? If you recall. If you don't
15 recall, that's fine.
16 A I -- I can't say definitely, but I most
17 likely asked him and then he replied that he
18 wasn't there.
19 Q And then it talks about some
20 messages that you left. Who did you leave
21 messages for?
22 A I left messages for Kelly Snyder, Kevin
23 Kloepping and Joseph Schoendorf.
24 Q And what was your understanding as
25 to who those individuals were?
00149
1 A They were also said to be at the
2 firehouse that evening, that night of the
3 incident.
4 Q And what was your purpose in
5 leaving messages for them?
6 A To ask them to come in for an interview.
7 Q And then later on in your report
8 you talk about something that happened later in
9 the evening. Why don't you look at that to
10 refresh your recollection, and then tell us what
11 it is that happened later in the evening?
12 A Oh, that evening I was checking the
13 victims' home and I --
14 Q Why were you checking the victims'
15 home?
16 A It was my job to keep the victim safe, to
17 make sure no -- nothing further happened or
18 happens.
19 Q And how were you doing that?
20 A By -- what do you mean by how was I doing
21 that?
22 Q In other words, I guess my
23 question to you is: By what method were you
24 checking the victims' home?
25 A I drove to the victims' home, and
00150
1 basically I -- I drove into the parking lot by
2 the firehouse there and in front of the victims'
3 home, in that area.
4 Q And how long did you stay there?
5 A I don't recall.
6 Q And how often were you doing that
7 back in late April or early May of '04?
8 A We were making the checks, very frequent
9 checks of the house; but I can't give you an
10 exact number or how many times I checked the
11 house.
12 Q So on this particular night, May
13 1st, when you were checking the victims' home,
14 did you have a discussion with Mr. Carter?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Okay. You want to look at your
17 report to refresh your recollection? If you can
18 tell us about the nature of that discussion?
19 A Yes, Mr. Carter was telling me how he had
20 a prior incident of finding condoms in his yard;
21 and basically he provided me with a New Jersey
22 registration number for a vehicle that was in
23 the parking lot that he believes may have
24 knowledge of the condom incident.
25 Q And then did you record that
00151
1 license plate in your report?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Did you make a determination as to
4 whose license plate it was?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And did you put that in your
7 report?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q Did you ever do any follow-up with
10 regard to that statement by Mr. Carter?
11 A Not to that particular incident, no.
12 Q Do you know why as you are sitting
13 here?
14 A It's just that it -- it never came to
15 that. The priority was the -- the incident on
16 the -- the harassment and the bias harassment
17 incident. It was -- I was never able to get to
18 it before the whole thing was taken over by the
19 AG's Office.
20 Q Now, I want to talk about --
21 speaking of the Attorney General's Office, were
22 you present for a meeting with investigators
23 from the Attorney General's Office?
24 A Yes, I was.
25 Q Do you recall when about that was,
00152
1 that meeting?
2 A I don't recall the date. I know there is
3 a report that states that we had a meeting, but
4 the exact date I don't know.
5 Q I am going to show you D-81 for
6 Identification and ask you if it refreshes your
7 recollection as to when the meeting was. You
8 can take a minute and read it.
9 A Okay. Yes, it does refresh my memory
10 that was May 4th of '04.
11 Q And where was that meeting held?
12 A At the Secaucus Public Library.
13 Q And what is your recollection as
14 to who was present for that meeting?
15 A There was Captain Buckley, Lieutenant
16 Malanka, Sergeant at the time Mike Reinke,
17 myself, the AG investigator, Attorney General
18 investigator. And that's all I can recall.
19 Q And what was the purpose of that
20 meeting to your recollection?
21 A Basically, it was just to review all the
22 reports, the whole case, to see where we were
23 and where we needed to go, so to speak.
24 Q Was the Attorney General's Office
25 or the investigators from the Attorney General's
00153
1 Office provided with any information?
2 A Yes, he was provided with full case copy
3 of all the reports that we had at that point.
4 Q All right. Now I'm going to ask
5 you to read, once again, just to yourself your
6 first paragraph; and then I am going to ask you
7 a question.
8 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, there is
9 no foundational question for reading the
10 document.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
12 MR. BEVERE: Okay. That's fine,
13 Your Honor.
14 BY MR. BEVERE:
15 Q Detective I will take that back.
16 A Sure.
17 MR. MULLIN: Can we have the
18 document taken down until -- thank you.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Pardon me?
20 MR. MULLIN: The document was up
21 on the screen. It hasn't been --
22 BY MR. BEVERE:
23 Q Now, Detective, when the meeting
24 with the Attorney General's investigators
25 concluded, what, if anything, did you do at that
00154
1 point? Do you need to see the report to refresh
2 your recollection?
3 A Yeah.
4 MR. BEVERE: Your Honor, at this
5 point permission to have the witness review the
6 report to refresh his recollection.
7 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I don't
8 mind having the document up on the screen at
9 this point.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
11 MR. BEVERE: Thank you.
12 BY MR. BEVERE:
13 A Okay. Okay.
14 Q When the meeting with the Attorney
15 General's Office concluded or the investigators
16 from the Attorney General's Office concluded at
17 the library, where, if anywhere, did you go?
18 A We took that investigator to the crime
19 scene.
20 Q And what was the purpose of your
21 doing that?
22 A Again, to provide him with as much
23 information about the incident as we could.
24 Q And did you stay with him while he
25 viewed the crime scene?
00155
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, I'm going to show you what
3 has been marked as D-84 for Identification and
4 ask you what that is?
5 A This is a supplemental investigation
6 report filed by me on May 5th of '04.
7 Q And does that report detail the
8 things that you did in regard to the
9 investigation on that date?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And do you need to have that
12 report in front of you to refresh your
13 recollection as to what you did?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. Let's start with the first
16 paragraph of your report. Starts at 1940 hours.
17 Can you tell us what you did at 1940 hours?
18 A Okay. At 1940 hours, which is 7:40 p.m.,
19 I contacted Janine Mutschler and asked her to
20 respond to my headquarters to be interviewed
21 regarding the incident.
22 Q What was your understanding at the
23 time as to who Janine Mutschler was?
24 A I'm sorry, I didn't hear.
25 Q What was your understanding at
00156
1 that time as to who Janine Mutschler was?
2 A Another potential witness of the
3 incident.
4 Q And did you have a discussion with
5 Mrs. Mutschler?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q And what did Mrs. Mutschler tell
8 you?
9 A She said she didn't wish to speak with
10 me.
11 Q And then, going on, at 1850 hours,
12 which would be what time?
13 A That would be 6:50 p.m.
14 Q You had a phone conversation?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q With whom? With whom?
17 A Oh, the victim, Tim Carter.
18 Q All right. And you have the
19 report in front of you. You can refresh your
20 recollection, but what was that conversation
21 about?
22 A This is basically regarding an e-mail he
23 received that he -- he said the information in
24 it was important for the case.
25 Q Okay. And can you -- can you
00157
1 relate to us the nature of the discussion that
2 you had with Mr. Carter about this e-mail?
3 MR. MULLIN: Objection, leading,
4 Your Honor.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Please rephrase.
6 BY MR. BEVERE:
7 Q Tell us what was said by you and
8 by Mr. Carter in that conversation.
9 A Okay. I just need to refresh my memory.
10 Q Sure, go ahead and read the --
11 whatever you need to read, and then you can
12 answer my question.
13 A Okay. Now the question again, please?
14 Q Does that refresh your
15 recollection as to what was discussed by you and
16 Mr. Carter?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. Tell us what was discussed
19 by you and Mr. Carter.
20 A I was asking Mr. Carter to provide us
21 with a copy of that e-mail, and he was not
22 certain if he should do so or not.
23 Q Did he indicate to you why he felt
24 that way?
25 A He stated that his understanding was the
00158
1 Attorney General's Office already took over the
2 investigation, and he was not certain if he
3 should give it to the Attorney General's Office
4 or the Secaucus Police Department.
5 Q And what, if anything, did you
6 tell him when he indicated that to you?
7 A I told him that we still are
8 investigating the incident and that, you know,
9 withholding the e-mail would delay the outcome
10 of the investigation or prohibit us from
11 possibly identifying actors involved in the
12 incident.
13 Q And how did you leave the
14 conversation with Mr. Carter?
15 A Oh, he -- yeah, he told me before he
16 makes his decision he wanted to contact Senator
17 Corzine's office to ask them how to proceed.
18 Q And then did Mr. Carter call you
19 back?
20 A No, he didn't.
21 Q All right. What, if anything, did
22 you and -- what, if anything, did you do after
23 your discussion with Mr. Carter about the
24 e-mail? You could look at your report, if you
25 need to.
00159
1 A Me and my partner, Detective Sergeant at
2 the time Mike Reinke, went up to the victims'
3 home.
4 Q And about what time was that?
5 A I listed 2000 hours, which would be
6 8 p.m.
7 Q And what was the purpose of yours
8 and Detective Reinke's going to Mr. deVries' and
9 Mr. Carter's home?
10 A To retrieve the e-mail.
11 Q And tell us what happened when you
12 got to Mr. deVries' and Mr. Carter's home to
13 retrieve the e-mail?
14 A Mr. deVries answered the door and
15 basically said he had nothing to say to us and
16 slammed the door on us.
17 Q I'm going to show you what's been
18 marked as D-85 for Identification. What is
19 that? What is D-85?
20 A This is another supplemental
21 investigation report filed by me on May 5th,
22 '04.
23 Q And what, if any, information did
24 you -- did you document in that report?
25 A What happened, I was at the Sunoco gas
00160
1 station in Town; and the victim, Tim Carter,
2 came into the --
3 Q At what time approximately?
4 A Oh, I'm sorry, 2300 hours, which would be
5 11 p.m.
6 Q The same day, May 5th?
7 A On the same date, yes.
8 Q Tell us what happened when you saw
9 Mr. --
10 A I was in the convenience store section of
11 the Sunoco gas station. And Mr. Carter entered
12 the store, and we engaged in the conversation.
13 Q What was discussed by you and
14 Mr. Carter in this conversation?
15 A Mr. Carter apologized for Mr. deVries and
16 explained that he just prefers to be -- for the
17 AG's Office, Attorney General's Office to
18 conduct the investigation.
19 Q And then did you indicate to
20 Mr. Carter anything about the e-mail?
21 A I tried to impress upon him that we would
22 still need that e-mail. And again I told him by
23 not providing that information, it would inhibit
24 our investigation.
25 Q And what, if anything, did
00161
1 Mr. Carter tell you in response?
2 A He said he'd supply us a copy in the
3 morning.
4 Q Did Mr. Carter ever supply you
5 with a copy of the e-mail?
6 A No, he didn't supply me with a copy.
7 Q All right. Detective, I'm going
8 to show you a document which I have marked as
9 D-104 and D-105 for Identification and ask if
10 you could identify that?
11 A Yes, I can identify it. This is another
12 supplemental investigation report left by me on
13 May 1st of '04.
14 Q And you could look at your report
15 to refresh your recollection, if you need to;
16 but what is the incident that's referenced in
17 this report?
18 A What is it titled, you mean, or --
19 Q In other words -- let me ask it
20 this way: Do you have a recollection of the
21 incident that this report is about?
22 A Yes, I do.
23 Q Okay. Can you tell us about the
24 incident and what you did in response? And you
25 could look at your report to refresh your
00162
1 recollection.
2 A Okay. Well, on May 1st -- and I have
3 that 1715 hours, which is 5:15 p.m. -- I spoke
4 to Patrick Hjelm regarding a comment that was
5 made to him while he was doing landscaping work.
6 Q Do you know how this incident was
7 brought to your attention?
8 A I'm not certain if Captain Buckley just
9 assigned it to me, said to go up and speak to
10 this gentleman or I took my own initiative. I
11 don't -- I don't recall.
12 Q All right. I'm going to show you
13 what was previously marked as D-103 just to see
14 if that refreshes your recollection. And if it
15 doesn't, that's fine.
16 A Okay.
17 Q As you are sitting here today do
18 you have a recollection as to how this matter
19 was assigned to you?
20 A Again, by reading the report, I'm not
21 certain how I ended up there.
22 Q Okay.
23 A But I did.
24 Q Let's talk then about what you did
25 when you were assigned the investigation.
00163
1 A Okay. Well, I spoke to Patrick Hjelm,
2 the person who reported the incident.
3 Q And what did you and Mr. Hjelm
4 discuss?
5 A Well, he told me that while doing
6 landscaping work in front of the victims' home a
7 vehicle drove by with two occupants and he
8 overheard someone saying, "Looks like the homos
9 are out again," something to that effect.
10 Q Okay. And did Mr. Hjelm give you
11 a description of the vehicle that was involved?
12 A Yes, he did.
13 Q And what was the description that
14 Mr. Hjelm provided?
15 A An older model Bronco, Ford Bronco II.
16 Q Was Mr. Hjelm able to provide you
17 with a description of the person or -- a
18 description of one of the occupants of the
19 vehicle?
20 A Just give me a moment here.
21 Q Sure.
22 A Yes, he did give me a description of the
23 passenger.
24 Q Take your time, read your report.
25 You can refresh your recollection with your
00164
1 report.
2 A Yes, he did give me a description of the
3 passenger.
4 Q And what was the description of
5 the passenger that he provided to you?
6 A A while male in his mid 20s, had a bright
7 red baseball cap and some facial hair.
8 Q And I want you to look at your
9 first paragraph -- let me ask you a question.
10 Was this a conversation you had in person with
11 Mr. Hjelm or on the telephone?
12 A On the telephone, I believe.
13 Q Okay. Okay. And then did Mr.
14 Hjelm indicate to you anything about what the
15 vehicle did after he heard the comment being
16 made?
17 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor,
18 objection, leading, as opposed to --
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
20 MR. MULLIN: -- what did Mr. Hjelm
21 tell you?
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Please rephrase.
23 BY MR. BEVERE:
24 Q What, if anything, did Patrick
25 Hjelm indicate to you about --
00165
1 MR. BEVERE: Sorry, Your Honor, is
2 that -- did you need something?
3 JUDGE CURRAN: About the vehicle;
4 is that it?
5 MR. BEVERE: Excuse me?
6 JUDGE CURRAN: I just want to make
7 sure we just don't get the same --
8 MR. BEVERE: I -- I understand.
9 BY MR. BEVERE:
10 Q What, if anything, did Mr. Hjelm
11 indicate to you about where the vehicle traveled
12 to after he saw it?
13 A He stated it made a right on Paterson
14 Plank Road and then stopped in the area of Huber
15 Street.
16 Q And did Mr. Hjelm -- let me -- did
17 Mr. Hjelm tell you anything about what either
18 the driver or the passenger of that vehicle did
19 after he saw it?
20 A Yes, he did.
21 Q What did he indicate to you?
22 A The passenger exited the vehicle and then
23 spoke to somebody in front of Danny's Bar, which
24 is on the corner of Huber Street and Paterson
25 Plank Road.
00166
1 Q And what did Pat Hjelm tell you he
2 did at that point?
3 A At that time he stated that he advised
4 the victim, Tim Carter, of the incident.
5 Q Now, the report goes on to -- did
6 you and Mr. Hjelm have a discussion about any
7 other vehicles that were in the vicinity at the
8 time?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. And what did you and Mr.
11 Hjelm discuss in that regard?
12 A Mr. Hjelm stated he had a conversation
13 with Mr. Carter, and Mr. Carter informed Mr.
14 Hjelm that there was a white vehicle earlier at
15 the firehouse and -- and that the occupants were
16 firemen and -- and then -- but that vehicle had
17 nothing to do with that incident.
18 Q Okay. Did Mr. Hjelm indicate to
19 you whether or not he would be able to identify
20 the person that he saw again?
21 A He stated that he would be able to
22 identify the passenger, if seen again; but he
23 wasn't sure about the driver, if he could
24 identify.
25 Q Then your report goes on to talk
00167
1 about -- what -- and you could use your report
2 to refresh your recollection. What, if
3 anything, did you do after you had this
4 discussion with Mr. Hjelm?
5 A At that time I -- I notified Chief
6 Corcoran of the incident. I also notified Fire
7 Chief Walters of the incident. And also gave
8 the information out to the Patrol Division.
9 Q And then, thereafter did you have
10 some conversation with Mayor Elwell?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. Tell us about your
13 discussion with Mayor Elwell.
14 A He said that he -- basically he wanted to
15 provide us with a copy of a voice message that
16 was left on his machine by Tim Carter.
17 Q Did you contact Mayor Elwell, or
18 did Mayor Elwell contact you?
19 A He contacted us -- me.
20 Q And then did Mayor Elwell provide
21 you with a copy of the voice mail message?
22 A Yes, it was on cassette tape. And I took
23 it, secured it and entered it into evidence.
24 Q Okay. And I want to show you what
25 I marked as D-106 for Identification. And I'm
00168
1 going to ask you -- it's a little light, but if
2 you could make it out, what that would be?
3 A Okay. Yeah, this is a Secaucus Police
4 Department property evidence report. And that
5 was filed by me on -- is that May 1st of '04 --
6 I believe, yes, May 1st, '04.
7 Q And what did you put into Evidence
8 pursuant to that report?
9 A The cassette tape.
10 Q Keep your report in front of you.
11 I will take 106 back.
12 And going on, in regard to your report,
13 did you take any steps to identify the vehicle
14 that Mr. Hjelm had reported as being involved in
15 the incident wherein someone was said to have
16 said, "The homos are home"?
17 A Yes, I searched New Jersey Division of
18 Motor Vehicle files for -- for any registration
19 information pertaining to that car for anyone
20 that was involved in this incident.
21 Q When you say, "involved in this
22 incident," who did you -- who did you check the
23 Motor Vehicle records against?
24 A The firemen.
25 Q The firemen from where?
00169
1 A The North End Firehouse.
2 Q And did you have a list of the
3 firemen from the North End Firehouse?
4 A No, I believe I just -- I was able to
5 just run the registrations for the people
6 mentioned in -- in earlier reports.
7 Q The people that were mentioned in
8 the reports that were prepared by the responding
9 officers?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. And then you also had a
12 conversation with Chief Walter?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And what did you ask Chief Walter
15 for something?
16 A I asked him for a Fire Department roster
17 of all the members.
18 Q And then the last thing that you
19 did pursuant to your report, did you do anything
20 else to try and locate the vehicle?
21 A Yes, I --
22 Q What did you do?
23 A I went on the road, and I went to the
24 firehouses to check for any vehicle matching
25 that description. And I had no luck, negative
00170
1 results.
2 Q All right. I'm going to show you
3 a document that I have marked as D-143 for
4 Identification and ask you if you can tell us
5 what that document is?
6 A This is an investigation report filed by
7 me on May 21st of 2004.
8 Q And in regard to that, can you
9 tell us, does that report relate a conversation
10 that you had with Mr. Carter --
11 A Yes.
12 Q -- on that date?
13 A On that date, yes, I did have a
14 conversation with Tim Carter.
15 Q Can you tell us what the nature of
16 the discussion was between you and Mr. Carter?
17 A Well, it was over the telephone. I
18 received a call from Mr. Tim Carter. And he was
19 basically concerned that a fireman from the
20 North End Firehouse had a relative that worked
21 for the Police Department.
22 Q And who was the member of the
23 North End Firehouse, and who was the relative in
24 the Police Department?
25 A The member of the Fire Department is
00171
1 Matthew Kickey, and his uncle is Joseph Kickey.
2 And he is a police officer within the Town of
3 Secaucus.
4 Q And what, if anything, did you
5 indicate to Mr. Carter about his concerns?
6 A Well, his main concern was that he was
7 afraid that Joseph Kickey, the Secaucus police
8 officer, would get to the reports and get rid of
9 certain reports to protect his nephew.
10 Q And what, if anything, did you
11 indicate or did you tell Mr. Carter in response
12 to that?
13 A Basically I told -- assured him that that
14 wasn't going to happen and that -- yeah, that
15 was it. I just said, "No, that's not going to
16 be a problem."
17 Q I am going to show you what's been
18 marked as D-116 for Identification. See if you
19 can identify D-116.
20 A Yes, I can identify it. This is an
21 investigation report filed by me on May 15th of
22 2004.
23 Q And do you have a recollection of
24 the incident --
25 A Yeah.
00172
1 Q -- involved?
2 A Yes, I do.
3 Q Do you need to refer to your
4 report to refresh your recollection as to the
5 specifics?
6 A No.
7 Q Okay. Then I will look at it.
8 Tell us what happened on May 15th, 2004 to your
9 recollection.
10 A I received a voice message on my
11 department telephone from Mr. Tim Carter, and
12 he -- he stated that the -- there was a party
13 going on at the North End Firehouse. And that
14 was his concern, and that he -- he believed this
15 was their way of saying, "F you" to him.
16 Q Did Mr. Carter indicate to you
17 whether there was any harassment going on or any
18 disorderly conduct going on?
19 MR. MULLIN: Objection, leading,
20 calls for a legal conclusion.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: All right. I will
22 sustain it. You can rephrase it, if you will,
23 please.
24 BY MR. BEVERE:
25 Q What -- what, if anything, did
00173
1 Mr. Carter indicate to you about the behavior
2 that was going on in the Fire Department parking
3 lot?
4 A I believe he just said they were drinking
5 in the parking lot. He didn't state anything
6 that they were bothering him or harassing him.
7 Q Now, did you -- I thought -- this
8 came on your voice mail?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And then what, if anything, did
11 you do when you received this voice mail from
12 Mr. Carter?
13 A I immediately notified the Patrol
14 Division and had units dispatched to the
15 firehouse.
16 Q Did you do that immediately?
17 A Yes, as soon as I reviewed the message I
18 went upstairs and had units dispatched.
19 Q And what was your understanding as
20 to the results of that investigation?
21 A Well, Sergeant Zloty informed me that he
22 went up there and it was basically a party for a
23 nine-year-old child and they did have
24 authorization from the Fire Department and they
25 did not view any disruptive behavior or any
00174
1 alcohol consumption outside the firehouse.
2 Q And then did you prepare a report
3 reflecting that?
4 A Yes, yes.
5 Q And that's the report that I just
6 showed you is D-116?
7 A Yes.
8 Q At the time you received a message
9 were there any other detectives working?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q Okay. Detective, the last
12 document I am going to show you is D-160. Can
13 you tell us what D-160 is?
14 A This is a supplemental investigation
15 report filed by me on May 25th of '04.
16 Q And what incident is referenced in
17 that report?
18 A Suspicious person in vehicle.
19 Q And do you need to see your
20 report -- have your report in front of you to
21 refresh your recollection as to the event?
22 A I'd like to keep it in front of me to
23 refresh my memory.
24 Q Okay. Can you tell us how it was
25 that this matter was brought to your attention
00175
1 from looking at your report?
2 A Yes, I -- I received a telephone call
3 from Mr. Tim Carter.
4 Q And about what time?
5 A Approximately 1700 hours, which would be
6 5 p.m., on the 25th of May.
7 Q And what, if anything, did
8 Mr. Carter indicate to you in that conversation?
9 A He stated that the day before the
10 incident while he was leaving his home there was
11 a suspicious person and vehicle parked across
12 the street from his home.
13 Q Did he give you a description of
14 the person or the vehicle?
15 A Yes, he did.
16 Q Can you give us the descriptions
17 that he gave you, please?
18 A Okay. He reported that the vehicle was
19 an older model, burgundy colored 1970s four-door
20 American-made car. And it had a New Jersey
21 registration of M, as in Mary, R, as in Robert,
22 L, as in lima. And he didn't know the other
23 characters.
24 Q Did Mr. Carter indicate anything
25 to you as to why he believed the vehicle was
00176
1 there?
2 A He believed that -- he was very afraid.
3 He believed that this man sitting in the car was
4 hired by the Fire Department to hurt him or kill
5 him.
6 Q And then did you have any further
7 discussion with Mr. Carter about any contact he
8 had with the Police Department about the
9 vehicle?
10 A Can you rephrase that, please?
11 Q Sure, not a problem at all. Did
12 you have any discussions with Mr. Carter about
13 any conversations he had had with the Police
14 Department the day before about the incident?
15 A Oh, yes, I did.
16 Q What did Mr. Carter tell you about
17 his conversation the day before?
18 A That he called up and he spoke to the
19 desk officer. He described his name as
20 Borchelli, but ended up Borrelli. And he was --
21 he was basically complaining about Borrelli's
22 conduct, that he said he seemed like he was
23 trying to minimize the incident.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: I will note the
25 officer is using his report to refresh his
00177
1 recollection.
2 MR. BEVERE: Thank you, Your
3 Honor.
4 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
5 BY MR. BEVERE:
6 Q Well, what if -- what, if any,
7 option did you give Mr. Carter?
8 A Well, I asked him if he wanted to sign
9 a -- any type of formal complaint against
10 Officer Borrelli.
11 Q And what was Mr. Carter's response
12 to you?
13 A He stated no, you know, he -- he said the
14 officer appeared to be trying to assist him, but
15 he felt he was minimizing his concerns.
16 Q And then did you and Mr. Carter
17 have any other discussions in that conversation?
18 A Yes, he asked how he could get a copy of
19 the case file for the incident reports.
20 Q And what, if anything, did you
21 advise him?
22 A I advised him that he would have to
23 contact my captain, John Buckley, in the
24 morning.
25 Q Were you involved in any follow-up
00178
1 investigation into this matter with the burgundy
2 sedan?
3 A No.
4 Q Are you aware of whether one was
5 done?
6 A I'm aware that they -- that partial plate
7 number was provided to the New Jersey State
8 Police and they did what's called an "off-line
9 search" of any vehicles with the -- those
10 character -- characters, beginning characters.
11 MR. BEVERE: Judge, can I just
12 have two minutes? I might be done.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Go off the record
14 for a moment.
15 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
16 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
17 off the record.)
18 MR. BEVERE: I'm sorry, I have one
19 more question for the detective.
20 BY MR. BEVERE:
21 Q I'm going to show you again what I
22 have marked as D-143 for Identification.
23 MR. MULLIN: 143?
24 MR. BEVERE: 143.
25 BY MR. BEVERE:
00179
1 Q And you have testified --
2 MR. MULLIN: Hold on.
3 Q -- about this document. I want to
4 ask you, in addition to the conversation that
5 you had with Mr. Carter about -- or in addition
6 to Mr. Carter expressing to you his concern
7 about Detective Kickey -- or, I'm sorry, Captain
8 Kickey, did he tell you anything else?
9 A Yes, he did say that he was satisfied
10 with the members of the Secaucus Police
11 Department and how we were conducting our
12 investigation. He just wanted to say that he
13 was concerned that Matt Kickey's uncle was
14 employed by the Secaucus Police Department.
15 Q Was Matt Kickey's uncle in any way
16 involved in this investigation?
17 A To my knowledge, no.
18 Q And what was the date of that
19 report?
20 A That was the 21st of May 2004.
21 MR. BEVERE: Okay. I have no
22 further questions at this time, Your Honor,
23 thank you.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
25 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
00180
1 Q Good afternoon, Officer.
2 A Good afternoon.
3 Q Talking about the Kickeys, let's
4 get back to D-74, which has already been brought
5 to your attention. So D-74 is a report that you
6 wrote on May 1st, 2004; and you signed it,
7 right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And later that evening you ran
10 into Tim Carter, you write, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And he provided you with the plate
13 number of vehicle that was parked at the Fire
14 Department lot on the day he found a condom in
15 his backyard, right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And he actually gave you the plate
18 number, which you wrote down, right?
19 A He did, yes.
20 Q "He stated that this vehicle was a
21 BMW and that he didn't witness anyone throw the
22 condom in his backyard. He believes that this
23 vehicles' occupants may have knowledge of the
24 incident or committed the act," right?
25 A Yes.
00181
1 Q That's what you wrote and that's
2 what he told you, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And it says, you wrote, "The
5 vehicle comes back to Robert A. Kickey of 25 Arn
6 Terrace, Secaucus, New Jersey" and, "BMW 325,"
7 right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And what you told the jury is you
10 didn't follow up on that, right?
11 A No, I didn't.
12 Q Robert Kickey was at that time a
13 councilman of the City of Secaucus, right?
14 A I believe so.
15 Q And Matt Kickey, his son, was a
16 firefighter in the North End Firehouse, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And Matt Kickey also had a job
19 working at the Hudson County Prosecutor's
20 Office, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And Matt Kickey's uncle, Joe, was
23 not just a police officer; he was a captain in
24 the Secaucus Police Department, right? He was a
25 captain?
00182
1 A Was he a captain at this time or --
2 Q Mr. Bevere just called him a
3 captain. Was he right or --
4 A That would be correct -- correct. I know
5 there was a large amount of officers that got
6 promoted, so I get confused with their
7 promotional dates. But it's quite possible he
8 was captain at the time.
9 Q Okay. And you didn't follow up on
10 this, right?
11 A No.
12 Q And that was May 1, 2004?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you just saw some reports when
15 you were doing work on some of these matters on
16 May 25th, 2004, right, report he just showed
17 you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. Now, you testified about
20 doing some canvassing on April 28, 2004; and
21 you -- and Mr. Bevere showed you D-30, D-31 and
22 D-32, right?
23 A Yes, he did.
24 Q That your handwriting on D-31,
25 D-32?
00183
1 A Yes, it is.
2 Q This is a list of people whose
3 doorbells you rang to see whether they were home
4 or not, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Many of them were, "No ans." Does
7 that mean "no answer"?
8 A That means "no answer," yes.
9 Q And you got that on a fair number
10 of them, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q In your deposition, when I took
13 your deposition, you conceded that you didn't
14 follow up on those, right?
15 A No, I didn't.
16 Q Okay. Now, is the -- is Dee
17 Bardini on that list?
18 A I don't see that name.
19 Q How about a Patricia Hjelm,
20 H-j-e-l-m; is she on that list?
21 A I don't see her name.
22 Q How about Patrick Hjelm,
23 H-j-e-l-m; is he on that list?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Okay. Mr. Bevere showed you D-84,
00184
1 which is one of your reports. Let me walk it
2 over and show it to you. You remember
3 discussing D-84, which is one of your police
4 reports, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And the date of this is May 5,
7 2004, right?
8 A May 5th, 2004, yes.
9 Q That is your signature on it,
10 correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And at the bottom paragraph it
13 says, "At 2000 hours" -- that would be 8 p.m.,
14 right?
15 A Yes, it is.
16 Q -- "on May 2004 Detective Sergeant
17 Reinke and I" -- that would be you, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- "responded to the victims'
20 home. Upon arrival Peter deVries opened the
21 door. I said hello to Peter; and he immediately
22 replied, 'We have nothing to say to you.'" And
23 then what does it say?
24 A "And closed the door."
25 Q It doesn't say, "slammed the
00185
1 door," right? Says, "closed the door," right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q That's what you wrote, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, are you aware that the -- in
6 previous days before this, sometime at the end
7 of April, that Peter deVries went down and gave
8 a statement to the Police Department? Are you
9 aware of that?
10 A Yes, I am aware that he provided a
11 statement.
12 Q He came down to the police station
13 and he gave a statement, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And also, before this closing of
16 the door on around April 28th or 29th Tim Carter
17 came down and he gave a statement. You actually
18 took the statement, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And Mr. Carter was cooperative,
21 right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q But then what happened, on May 1st
24 the Fire Department reopened the firehouse and
25 an incident that was discussed previously, that
00186
1 very day, that very moment someone went running
2 around the house of deVries and Carter
3 screaming, "The homos are home. The homos are
4 home." Are you aware of that?
5 MR. BEVERE: Objection to the
6 characterization of running around the house
7 screaming.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
9 BY MR. MULLIN:
10 Q Are you aware of an incident on --
11 immediately upon the opening of the firehouse
12 that took place at the Carter and deVries
13 residence?
14 A Are you referring to the case reported by
15 Patrick Hjelm?
16 Q Yes, exactly, sir.
17 A Yes, I am aware.
18 Q And you actually --
19 A Yes.
20 Q -- interviewed him? You
21 interviewed him, right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And that happened on May 1st,
24 right?
25 A I don't recall the date.
00187
1 Q Let me see if I can get one of
2 those reports. Let me show you what was marked
3 as D-104. And that's your report, right, D-104?
4 And the second page is D-105?
5 A Yes, that's my report.
6 Q And that's the report you
7 discussed under questioning of Mr. Bevere,
8 right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that's where you went down and
11 spoke to Mr. Hjelm about this incident involving
12 someone saying, "The homos are home," right?
13 A Yes, that's when I spoke to Patrick
14 Hjelm; and that was on May 1st.
15 Q And that -- that refreshes your
16 recollection?
17 A Yes.
18 Q That incident was May 1st, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. So after that, after that
21 incident happened, after the firehouse was
22 reopened, that's when Mr. deVries closed the
23 door, right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q By the way, getting back to that
00188
1 incident that you interviewed Hjelm about, "The
2 homos are home," it says, "Chief Corcoran was
3 notified of this incident, as well as Fire Chief
4 Walters." So that's -- when you say, "this
5 incident" in your report, Chief Corcoran, Chief
6 of Police and Fire Chief Walters were both
7 notified that this incident had happened as
8 reported by Mr. Hjelm, right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Sir, that same day, in that
11 same report, D-105, that's when you reported
12 that, "Mayor Elwell contacted this agency and
13 wished to provide us with a copy of a voice
14 message left on his answering machine by the
15 victim, Tim Carter." And you indicated under
16 questioning that you had spoken to Mayor Elwell;
17 is that right?
18 A That's what I indicated, yes.
19 Q And that Mayor Elwell -- in that
20 conversation with Mayor Elwell about the tape
21 you realized that he was -- he was voluntarily
22 calling about that, right? Was that the thrust
23 of what you said? That is, you hadn't contacted
24 him; he called you? That essentially it?
25 A I'm not certain.
00189
1 Q Okay. In your deposition of
2 July 31st, 2006 -- and you were under oath
3 there, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. The question at page 60,
6 line 4 that was asked by a lawyer working for my
7 firm, "For the record, since it came up earlier,
8 on the second page of this report there is an
9 indication that Mayor Elwell contacted the
10 police and wanted to provide the police with a
11 copy of a voice message that had been left on
12 his answering machine by Mr. Carter; is that
13 accurate?"
14 And you answered, "Yes," right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And that was accurate, right? And
17 then the question was, "Do you recall anything
18 else about -- strike that. Did you have a
19 conversation with Mayor Elwell regarding the
20 tape?"
21 And your answer was?
22 A "I don't believe so."
23 Q Having seen that now, do you now
24 recall that you did not have a conversation with
25 Mayor Elwell about the tape that day?
00190
1 A I can't -- I don't recall either way.
2 I'm sorry.
3 Q But you wouldn't have said
4 something false under oath at a deposition,
5 right? When you said, "I don't believe so,"
6 that was your best recollection at that time,
7 right?
8 A Yes.
9 MR. MULLIN: Okay. The date of
10 that deposition was July 31, 2006, Your Honor.
11 I didn't mention that for the record.
12 No further questions, thank you.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
15 Q Detective, as you are sitting here
16 do you have a recollection as to how the tape
17 came into your possession that you logged into
18 evidence?
19 A No, I don't recall at the moment.
20 Q Okay. But there is no doubt that
21 you got the tape and you logged it into
22 Evidence?
23 A Yes, that -- I did log it into evidence.
24 Q Okay. Now, just a couple of quick
25 questions. With regard to Matt Kickey, did you
00191
1 and Detective Reinke attempt to speak to --
2 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
3 Honor. This is a leading question.
4 MR. BEVERE: I am asking did he
5 attempt to speak to him.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Why don't you
7 just --
8 BY MR. BEVERE:
9 Q What, if any, attempts --
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Attempts -- if you
11 can just rephrase it starting back generally.
12 Q Did you go to the Hudson County
13 Prosecutor's Office Task Force office?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q All right. Do you recall
16 approximately when you went and what the purpose
17 was for your going?
18 A I don't recall the exact date; but my
19 purpose was to interview, along with my partner
20 Mike Reinke, to interview Matthew Kickey.
21 Q And do you recall what happened
22 when you got to the Hudson County Prosecutor's
23 Office to interview -- to attempt to interview
24 Matt Kickey?
25 A Yes, Mike Reinke did most of the
00192
1 speaking. What I recall is we went inside the
2 office, we located Matthew Kickey. He didn't
3 want to provide us with any information at that
4 time. He said he had to call his boss. At that
5 time he placed a phone call to somebody. I
6 recall Mike Reinke speaking to someone on the
7 phone. He told me that there was -- I forget
8 his first name. DePascale is it? I forget the
9 supervisor's name. He spoke to Matt's
10 supervisor on the phone and basically got yelled
11 at by that supervisor for coming to Matt's work
12 without any notification and that -- that was a
13 wrong procedure conducted by us.
14 Q The long and short end of it --
15 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
16 Honor, leading.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
18 Q Were you able to interview Matt
19 Kickey?
20 MR. MULLIN: At that time?
21 MR. BEVERE: At that time.
22 BY MR. BEVERE:
23 A No, he refused to speak with us.
24 Q Did Matt Kickey ever contact you
25 thereafter to say he would speak to you?
00193
1 A He never contacted me.
2 Q Now, with regard to some questions
3 that Mr. Mullin asked you about the canvas of
4 the neighborhood, do you know whether or not a
5 detective from the Secaucus Detective Bureau had
6 spoken to Dee Bardini before you did your
7 canvas?
8 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
9 Honor, leading.
10 MR. BEVERE: Judge.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: It is, but the
12 question is --
13 MR. BEVERE: Thank you, Your
14 Honor.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: It's a yes or no
16 question.
17 BY MR. BEVERE:
18 A Yes.
19 Q And the same with regard to
20 Patricia Hjelm; do you know whether or not
21 anyone from the Detective Bureau had spoken to
22 Patricia Hjelm prior to your doing your canvas
23 of the neighborhood?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And with regard to the incident on
00194
1 May 1st, did Mr. Hjelm indicate to you whether
2 or not Mr. Carter had heard the comment, "The
3 homos are home"?
4 A No, Mr. Hjelm told me that Mr. Tim Carter
5 was inside the house at the time.
6 Q And what, if anything, do you
7 recall Mr. Hjelm indicating to you about the
8 statement being said? Let me -- let --
9 A Yeah.
10 Q -- me rephrase it, so it's a
11 little more understandable because I'm not quite
12 certain I understood it myself.
13 Did Mr. Hjelm indicate to you whether
14 or not he believed the statement was directed at
15 him? Do you want to see your report?
16 A Yes, I can see that again.
17 MR. MULLIN: Which report are we
18 looking at again?
19 MR. BEVERE: D-104, D-105.
20 BY MR. BEVERE:
21 Q Read over your report.
22 A Okay.
23 MR. BEVERE: All right. And I
24 forgot my question, so I think I may need to
25 have it read back.
00195
1 (Whereupon, the requested portion
2 is read back by the reporter as follows:
3 "QUESTION: Did Mr. Hjelm indicate
4 to you whether or not he believed the
5 statement was directed at him?")
6 BY MR. BEVERE:
7 A Mr. Hjelm stated that he didn't feel that
8 comment was directed at him. He stated that he
9 felt that it was the passenger or driver making
10 comments to each other, a comment to each other.
11 MR. BEVERE: No further questions,
12 thank you.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin.
14 MR. MULLIN: Just one minute, Your
15 Honor. I have to get a document or two
16 together.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure. We will go
18 off the record.
19 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
20 off the record.)
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Back on the record.
22 MR. MULLIN: Thank you, Your
23 Honor.
24 RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
25 Q Sir, you discussed an incident
00196
1 where you went down with Reinke to try to
2 interview Matt Kickey at the Prosecutor's
3 Office, right?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q And I'm showing you D-14 and D-15,
6 which is the Reinke report about that attempt,
7 right? And it said -- Reinke writes here,
8 "After Matt spoke to Detective Sergeant
9 DePascale, I asked him" -- that's Reinke
10 writing -- "if he wanted to speak to me about
11 the incident. Matt answered that he would call
12 and make an appointment and that I should have
13 called him first," right?
14 A That's what Reinke had typed, yes.
15 Q And that's what Matt Kickey said,
16 right? You were there with him when Matt Kickey
17 said that, right?
18 A I can't remember exactly what he said
19 verbatim, but that sounds -- sounds right.
20 Q Okay. Now, the date of this
21 report is April 27, 2004, right?
22 A Yes, it is.
23 Q And it's on April 27th, 2004 at
24 2020 hours -- that would be about 8:20 p.m.?
25 A Yes.
00197
1 Q -- that you -- you and Reinke,
2 Detective Reinke, went down to Hudson County
3 Prosecutor's Task Force located on Duncan Avenue
4 to attempt to see Matt Kickey, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. Now, you couldn't have been
7 trying to ask him about the information in the
8 report I showed you before, D-74, right? That's
9 not possible, right?
10 A No, we went down there to interview him
11 regarding the initial --
12 Q Incident of April 25th --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- 2004?
15 A Yes.
16 Q It's not possible that you were
17 trying to interview Matt Kickey about the
18 information concerning the condom and the car
19 reflected in D-74 because that was given to
20 you -- that information was given to you on May
21 1st, 2004, four days after you went down to see
22 Matt Kickey, right? After, right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. So we can agree that you
25 most definitely did not go down to the Hudson
00198
1 County Prosecutor's Office to talk to Matt
2 Kickey about whether or not he was in a car
3 throwing condoms onto my clients' porch, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You identified the car that my
6 client -- that Tim Carter thought may have
7 committed the act of throwing the condoms onto
8 his porch, right, not as belonging to Matt
9 Kickey but the car as belonging to Robert
10 Kickey, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And Robert Kickey, the councilman,
13 well, you never went down to talk to him --
14 A No.
15 Q -- about that incident, right?
16 A No, I didn't.
17 MR. MULLIN: No further questions.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
19 MR. BEVERE: Yes.
20 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
21 Q The report that you prepared about
22 the condom incident and the report that
23 Detective Reinke prepared about your attempts to
24 speak to Matt Kickey about the incident of
25 April 25th, 2004, were all those reports
00199
1 supplied to the Attorney General's Office?
2 MR. MULLIN: Objection, no
3 foundation.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained. You can
5 lay a foundation for it.
6 BY MR. BEVERE:
7 Q I will make it -- I will try and
8 make it as simple as I can. Do you know what
9 information was supplied to the Attorney
10 General's Office?
11 A I was informed that --
12 MR. MULLIN: Objection, hearsay.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
14 BY MR. BEVERE:
15 Q All right. Were you involved in
16 the -- in the transmitting of reports to the
17 Attorney General's Office?
18 A No.
19 Q Okay. Do you know who was in the
20 department?
21 A Captain Buckley.
22 Q Okay. Thank you. No further
23 questions.
24 MR. MULLIN: No further questions.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Is there anyone on
00200
1 the jury who has a question for this witness?
2 If so, please raise your hand.
3 Seeing no questions, therefore
4 the witness may step down.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank
6 you.
7 (Whereupon, the witness is
8 excused.)
9 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
10 off the record.)
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Ladies and
12 Gentlemen, sometimes I just have to tell you.
13 We all just met over there to discuss why don't
14 we give the jury a break? So we are going to do
15 that. I'd ask if you will please come back in
16 15 minutes, thank you.
17 Off the record.
18 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
19 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
20 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
21 off the record.)
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Bring out the
23 jurors.
24 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
25 approaching.
00201
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
2 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
3 into the courtroom.)
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, Ladies
5 and Gentlemen. We're back on the record.
6 MS. HAWKS: Please raise your
7 right hand. Put your left hand on the Bible.
8 R A Y M O N D C I E C I U C H is duly sworn by
9 a Notary Public of the State of New Jersey
10 And testifies under oath as follows:
11 MS. HAWKS: For the record, please
12 state your full name and spell your last name,
13 please.
14 THE WITNESS: Sure. Raymond
15 Cieciuch, R-a-y-m-o-n-d C-i-e-c-i-u-c-h.
16 MS. HAWKS: Thank you. You may be
17 seated. Glass of water?
18 THE WITNESS: No, thank you.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, move a little
20 closer to the microphone, if you will.
21 THE WITNESS: Sure.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: You are under oath.
23 All your testimony must be truthful and accurate
24 to the best of your ability. Do you understand?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
00202
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. All
2 right. Please give us your address for the
3 record.
4 THE WITNESS: 163 Charles Street,
5 Secaucus, New Jersey.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
7 Your witness, Mr. Bevere.
8 MR. BEVERE: Thank you, Your
9 Honor.
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
11 Q Mr. Cieciuch, by whom are you
12 employed?
13 A Township of Secaucus.
14 Q What is your position there?
15 A Maintenance foreman.
16 Q And how long have you worked for
17 the Town of Secaucus?
18 A Five years.
19 Q And what positions have you held
20 in that five years?
21 A Started at the title of custodian, then
22 promoted to maintenance man, promoted to
23 maintenance coordinator and then promoted to
24 foreman/division coordinator.
25 Q When were you promoted to
00203
1 foreman/division coordinator?
2 A I believe it was 19 -- excuse me, 2003.
3 Q Are you also a member of the
4 Secaucus Volunteer Fire Department?
5 A Yes, I am.
6 Q And how long have you been a
7 member of the Secaucus Volunteer Fire
8 Department?
9 A Twenty-four years.
10 Q And have you held any positions as
11 an officer in the Secaucus Fire Department?
12 A Yes, I have.
13 Q What positions are those?
14 A From lieutenant to captain to battalion
15 chief to deputy chief to chief of the
16 Department.
17 Q And what years were you
18 lieutenant, captain, battalion chief, deputy
19 chief and Chief?
20 A Starting from 1988, ending in the year
21 2006.
22 Q Okay. And in 2004 what was your
23 rank within the Department?
24 A Deputy chief.
25 Q And how does one become battalion
00204
1 chief?
2 A You must serve two years as captain,
3 become an ex-captain to qualify to run for
4 battalion chief.
5 Q And then how does one become
6 deputy chief and then Chief?
7 A Once elected to the rank of battalion
8 chief it's an automatic that you move up over
9 the cycle. It's a two-year -- two years as
10 battalion chief, two years as deputy chief, two
11 years as chief of the Department.
12 Q And in 2004, when you were the
13 deputy chief, who was the Chief?
14 A Chief of the Department was Frank
15 Walters.
16 Q And who was the battalion chief?
17 A Battalion Chief Robert Parisi.
18 Q Just give me a general overview of
19 your duties and responsibilities as the deputy
20 chief.
21 A Deputy chief is second in command of the
22 department. His responsibilities, in the
23 absence of the chief of the Department, shall
24 act in the capacity of the chief of the
25 Department, handle any fire calls that
00205
1 transpire, any situations that occur during the
2 day in the absence of the chief of the
3 Department.
4 Q Do volunteer firefighters in
5 Secaucus have set hours?
6 A No, they don't.
7 Q And how does it work?
8 A The firemen are on-call. There is a
9 24-hour -- actually, in a day. Every fireman in
10 the Township of Secaucus carries a pager which
11 is activated through the Secaucus Police
12 Department, notifying them of when there is an
13 emergency, fire or what, so be it.
14 Q And is there some kind of stipend
15 that volunteer firefighters get?
16 A Right, there is -- there is a $300 a
17 month stipend. You need to make 60 percent of
18 the calls -- excuse me, correction, I think it's
19 35 percent of the calls.
20 Q And if you are a Town employee
21 that percentage higher?
22 A Yes, you need to make 40 percent of the
23 calls.
24 Q And do you get a clothing
25 allowance in addition?
00206
1 A Correct, at the end of the year there is
2 a $500 clothing allowance.
3 Q And is that the only compensation
4 that volunteer firefighters receive?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q I want to ask you about the spring
7 of 2004 and whether or not a complaint regarding
8 a condom ever came to your attention?
9 A Yes, it did.
10 Q And I'd like to know, first of
11 all, how did the complaint come to your
12 attention?
13 A I was -- as -- I was on my full-time job
14 as a -- a maintenance supervisor, and I walked
15 into the Department of Public Works. And one of
16 the secretaries informed me that they had
17 received a telephone complaint that there was an
18 alleged condom incident that transpired.
19 Q And did the person who transmitted
20 this information to you tell you anything about
21 who was involved and where it happened?
22 MR. MULLIN: Objection. Now we
23 are into hearsay.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: I'll allow that
25 question. Overruled.
00207
1 MR. BEVERE: Well, I'll rephrase
2 it, Your Honor.
3 BY MR. BEVERE:
4 Q What did the person who took the
5 phone call do with the information to your
6 knowledge?
7 A She passed the -- she originally passed
8 the message on to Chuck Snyder, Sr.
9 Q And do you have an understanding
10 as to why that message was passed on to Chuck
11 Snyder, Sr.?
12 A Because the -- the alleged allegation was
13 that it came from Chuck's firehouse.
14 Q And do you know as you are sitting
15 here today how it was that the person who took
16 the call made Chuck, Sr. aware of it?
17 A She notified Chuck because Chuck is, as
18 well, assistant -- now his title is assistant
19 superintendent of Public Works. And she gave
20 him the message because it was -- it was about
21 his firehouse and he is a former captain out of
22 that firehouse.
23 Q And then how did the complaint
24 then come to your attention?
25 A After the secretary spoke to me about it,
00208
1 you know, I explained to her that, you know,
2 that I was the deputy chief of the department
3 and that she should have told me.
4 Q And what, if any, response to you
5 did she have when you said, "You should have
6 told me"?
7 A She said, "I was unaware of that."
8 Q Now, what information were you
9 provided as to the nature of the complaint that
10 was given to the secretary?
11 A I -- I was told by the secretary that --
12 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
13 Honor. This is hearsay.
14 MR. BEVERE: Judge, it goes to his
15 state of mind.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: You can ask it that
17 way.
18 BY MR. BEVERE:
19 Q When you received this information
20 about the complaint, what, if any, action did
21 you take?
22 A I got a hold of Chuck Snyder, Sr. I went
23 into the office, and I spoke to him. I had said
24 I was told that there was an alleged incident of
25 condom that was thrown out the window and, as
00209
1 well, also I was told that there was a car
2 parked up close to the property line and that
3 they were looking to have the car removed.
4 Q When you say, "they were looking
5 to have the car removed," who was looking to
6 have the car removed?
7 A At the time I didn't know who the
8 complaint came from, okay. It just was a
9 resident near the firehouse.
10 Q Were you familiar with this
11 vehicle that was up against the house?
12 A No, I was not, not at the time.
13 Q Okay. Did you make yourself
14 familiar with that --
15 A Right.
16 Q -- vehicle?
17 A After I received the complaint I took a
18 ride up to the firehouse. I seen it. And I
19 also, as well, addressed it with Chuck Snyder,
20 Sr. He told me that it was a vehicle that was
21 going to be used for an extrication drill. And
22 I had asked Chuck Snyder, Sr. that they would
23 like the car to be removed. I asked them if
24 they could have the car removed, as well as I
25 said to Chuck, Sr. that if there is any
00210
1 accusation, if there is an alleged incident of a
2 condom being done, I want it to cease
3 immediately.
4 Q And what, if any, response did
5 Chuck have to you?
6 A Chuck's response was that, you know, we
7 didn't do it, you know. So, naturally, I said,
8 "I'm not saying you did or didn't; but if it is,
9 I want it to cease. And I want the vehicle
10 removed by 4:00."
11 Q And then did you do anything to
12 follow up in regard to the vehicle?
13 A Yes, I passed by that night; and the
14 vehicle was removed.
15 Q And then, after that point in time
16 did you receive any other complaints about
17 condoms?
18 A No, I did not.
19 Q Do you recall about when this
20 conversation with Chuck Snyder took place?
21 A It was probably within -- you know, I'm
22 not sure of the exact time; but it was within
23 the same day of the complaint.
24 Q Let me ask it a different way.
25 Are you familiar with an incident that is
00211
1 alleged to have taken place in the early morning
2 hours of April 25th, 2004?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When in relation to that date did
5 you have this discussion with Mr. Snyder about
6 the car?
7 A Prior to.
8 Q Do you know about how long prior
9 to?
10 A Not offhand, not exact dates.
11 Q If you can estimate for us, that's
12 fine, as well, if you know.
13 A I would probably say within two or three
14 months prior to that.
15 Q And from the time that you have
16 the conversation with Chuck Snyder thereafter
17 were any other complaints of condoms brought to
18 your attention?
19 A No, there was not.
20 MR. BEVERE: At this point I have
21 no further questions, Your Honor, thank you.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
23 Mr. Mullin.
24 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
25 Q Sir, this is --
00212
1 MR. MULLIN: I will be referring
2 to trial day eight, page 262.
3 Q Sir, we read some testimony to the
4 jury concerning this condom incident from Chief
5 Walters.
6 A Okay.
7 Q And he said, starting at line 6 on
8 page 262, "That was the morning after the major
9 one, the morning after the 25th. The week
10 prior, I don't remember offhand, my deputy had
11 informed me that one of the residents in the
12 area had complained to the firehouse about a
13 problem with the firehouse up in the North End
14 and that he handled the situation."
15 Question: Who was the deputy?
16 Answer: Raymond Cieciuch.
17 And then question: Do you know who the
18 resident was?
19 Answer: No.
20 Question: Do you know what the problem
21 was?
22 Answer: Supposedly a complaint of them
23 throwing something from the second floor window
24 onto the rear porch.
25 Question: You don't know what they
00213
1 allegedly threw?
2 Answer: Supposedly a condom.
3 So the Chief said in that sworn
4 testimony that it was about a week before the
5 April 25th incident --
6 A Right.
7 Q -- that -- that I guess you
8 reported back to him on the condom incident?
9 A Right.
10 Q Does that refresh your
11 recollection as to when it might have come to
12 your attention, this condom incident?
13 A Not offhand, no.
14 Q Okay. And what you are telling
15 the jury that -- well, sir, where do you work
16 right now again, what department?
17 A I work for Department of Public Works,
18 the Division of Building and Grounds, which is
19 the maintenance department.
20 Q Okay. And who do you report to
21 today?
22 A Today? I report to Chuck Snyder, Sr.
23 Q You reported to Chuck Snyder, Sr.
24 He is your boss, right?
25 A Assistant superintendent.
00214
1 Q He is your boss today, right?
2 A Correct.
3 Q If someone were to discipline or
4 fire you, it would be him, if he chose to,
5 right?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q He is your boss, though, right?
8 A He is my immediate supervisor.
9 Q Okay. So what you told this jury
10 is that your boss, your now boss, Chuck Snyder,
11 Sr. --
12 A Right.
13 Q -- back then told you that he
14 heard that someone was complaining about a
15 condom being thrown out of a window of the
16 firehouse? Is that what he told you?
17 A He didn't tell me -- Chuck didn't tell me
18 nothing. I approached him on it.
19 Q You approached him on it, having
20 heard something from some third party, correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q And then you approached him, and
23 then -- and then what did he tell you was
24 happening?
25 A He said -- he said that it was -- it was
00215
1 false, that nothing like that transpired.
2 Q And you asked him the question,
3 "Was a condom thrown out of a second floor
4 window?"
5 A Right.
6 Q Where did you get the idea that a
7 condom -- that someone was claiming a condom was
8 thrown out of a second floor window?
9 A That's what was told to the secretary.
10 Q That's what the secretary said she
11 was told?
12 A Right.
13 Q Okay. So then you -- after that
14 you didn't investigate to determine who had made
15 the complaint, right?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q And therefore, you never
18 interviewed the person who made the complaint
19 because you never figured out who that was,
20 right?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Okay. Let me just ask you a
23 couple questions.
24 A Okay.
25 Q And then Chief Walters in
00216
1 testimony I read to this jury said something
2 like you performed some sort of experiment, you
3 went up to the second floor of the firehouse; is
4 that right?
5 A Myself?
6 Q Yes, sir.
7 A No, that's absolutely false.
8 Q That never happened?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q So if Chief Walters said that,
11 that would not be true?
12 A That's definitely not true.
13 Q Okay. Your testimony here today
14 is that you just told Chuck Snyder, Sr. if that
15 was what they were doing, well, they should cut
16 it out, right?
17 A Right.
18 Q And also, they had put some sort
19 of a wreck of a car right next to the house,
20 right next to the firehouse?
21 A It wasn't -- it wasn't a wreck of a car.
22 It was a vehicle that was donated by a resident
23 for the purpose of performing a vehicle
24 extrication drill -- vehicle extrication rescue
25 with the jaws of life. It would be a drill
00217
1 performed by the firefighters to get practice.
2 Q And it was in the -- out in the
3 parking lot, right?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Of the North End Firehouse, right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And it was near one of the
8 residences that -- that are on the edge of the
9 firehouse, right?
10 A Yes, correct.
11 Q And you directed Mr. Snyder to
12 take that away; and they did, right?
13 A Right.
14 Q Sir, let me show you a document
15 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 123. And it's a
16 two-page document with Bates stamp numbers 317
17 and 318. And I will ask you if you recognize
18 this document?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And what is it, sir?
21 A The top document is a permission form to
22 have a party or to serve alcohol in a firehouse.
23 Q Okay. And the second page?
24 A The second page is a roster of the
25 company, the members that belong to that
00218
1 individual company.
2 Q That were going to attend the
3 function listed on the first page of P-123?
4 A Right.
5 Q Do you know whose handwriting is
6 on this document?
7 A No, I do not.
8 Q And do you recognize your
9 signature on the cover of P-123?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And that's the second one from the
12 bottom?
13 A Third one.
14 Q Second one from the bottom, third
15 one from the top?
16 A I'm sorry, right.
17 Q And this is a -- this is a
18 document or this -- I will just hold it up to
19 remind the jury. This is a document getting
20 permission for a company function and company
21 night out to take place on April 24th, 2004,
22 right?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Okay. And this function actually
25 took place, of course, right?
00219
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Neither you nor the Chief did
3 anything to cancel this event before it took
4 place, right? That is, it was approved and then
5 nothing was done to cancel it, right?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Okay. Sir, there was reference
8 made in Mr. Bevere's questions to the incident
9 that took place at the North End Firehouse on
10 April 25th, 2004. Do you remember him generally
11 asking about that?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And that Sunday morning,
14 April 25th, 2004, you attended a meeting on the
15 second floor conference room?
16 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I am going to
17 object as beyond the scope of direct at this
18 point.
19 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, he asked
20 about the incident.
21 MR. BEVERE: I asked him if he was
22 aware of the incident, Judge. I didn't ask him
23 about a meeting that took place the next day.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
25 BY MR. MULLIN:
00220
1 Q Let me ask you the question this
2 way. Did you ever hear your current boss, Chuck
3 Snyder, Sr., use any foul language describing
4 two gay men that lived in a house near the Fire
5 Department?
6 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I am going to
7 object as beyond the scope of the direct and --
8 that is my objection, thank you.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
10 MR. MULLIN: Nothing further.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
12 MR. BEVERE: No questions, Your
13 Honor, thank you.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Is there anyone on
15 the jury who has a question for this witness?
16 Thank you. You may step down.
17 (Whereupon, the witness is
18 excused.)
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere -- may I
20 just see counsel at sidebar for a minute before
21 we strike the witness?
22 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
23 off the record.)
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere, if you
25 will call your next witness.
00221
1 MR. BEVERE: I'm sorry, I will,
2 Your Honor. And my next witness is Mayor Dennis
3 Elwell.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
5 MR. BEVERE: I apologize, I was
6 swallowing water --
7 JUDGE CURRAN: No problem.
8 MR. BEVERE: -- and it wasn't
9 going down as nicely as I --
10 MS. HAWKS: Please raise your
11 right hand. Place your left hand on the Bible.
12 D E N N I S E L W E L L is duly sworn by a
13 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey
14 And testifies under oath as follows:
15 MS. HAWKS: For the record, please
16 state your full name and spell your last name,
17 please.
18 THE WITNESS: Dennis Elwell,
19 E-l-w-e-l-l.
20 MS. HAWKS: Thank you. You may be
21 seated. Would you like some water? Would you
22 like some water?
23 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir.
25 Please move a little closer to the microphone,
00222
1 if you will.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: And you are under
4 oath, sir. Therefore, your answers must be
5 truthful and accurate to the best of your
6 ability. Do you understand?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir.
9 Please --
10 THE WITNESS: I have a very raw
11 throat, so --
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. We have
13 plenty of water.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Please give us your
16 address for the record.
17 THE WITNESS: 1124 Farm Road,
18 Secaucus, New Jersey 07094.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
20 Your witness, Mr. Bevere.
21 MR. BEVERE: Thank you.
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
23 Q Mr. Elwell, you are the Mayor of
24 the Town of Secaucus?
25 A Yes, I am.
00223
1 Q And how long have you been the
2 Mayor of Secaucus?
3 A I was elected Mayor -- I was sworn in as
4 Mayor on January 1st of the year 2000.
5 Q And prior to that did you hold any
6 elected office in the Town of Secaucus?
7 A Yes, I was a Second Ward councilman from
8 January 1st, 1993 until January 1st, 2000.
9 Q And just for the benefit of some
10 brief background, what is it that you do for a
11 living?
12 A I own a family trucking business. I have
13 spent 30 years as a truck driver, driving across
14 the country. Upon the loss of an 18-year-old
15 son in 1989, I decided to stop driving and --
16 and take over my father's position in the
17 business and run the business. I -- I am the
18 president of the business right now. And
19 basically my job is limited to office work.
20 Q Tell us a little bit about your
21 duties and responsibilities as the Mayor of
22 Secaucus.
23 A Well, as a Mayor I have an office, a
24 secretary. I -- I am generally in the Town Hall
25 a minimum of four hours a day, some days eight
00224
1 hours. I -- I chair meetings. I am the chair
2 of our Council meetings. We meet twice a month.
3 I have -- also appoint certain members to
4 boards. I have sole appointments to our
5 Sewerage Authority, to our Library Board and
6 Planning Board. And then other appointments are
7 made by a consensus of the governing body.
8 Q Is mayor a full-time position?
9 A No, not at all. It's part-time.
10 Q And approximately how many hours
11 do you put in a week as Mayor?
12 A Well, depending, but I -- I would say
13 it -- it lingers around 30 to 35 hours.
14 Q And was that true also back in
15 2004?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, Mr. Mayor, I want to ask you
18 if you are familiar with an incident that
19 occurred on the early morning hours of
20 April 25th of 2004 at the North End Firehouse in
21 Secaucus?
22 A Okay.
23 Q Are you familiar with that
24 incident?
25 A Yes.
00225
1 Q You're aware of it?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Can you tell us -- well, first of
4 all, do you have an understanding as to whether
5 there was some type of company function that was
6 held on the evening of April 24th, 2004?
7 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
8 Honor.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
10 MR. MULLIN: Leading.
11 BY MR. BEVERE:
12 Q How is it that you became aware of
13 the incident of April 25th, 2004?
14 A The -- I received a phone call at, I
15 believe, 1:00 or 1:30 in the morning from one of
16 the members of the firehouse and asked me to --
17 to come up to the firehouse, that there was some
18 sort of a problem.
19 Q Where had you been earlier that
20 evening?
21 A The -- that firehouse had a -- what they
22 call a "company party"; and -- and actually,
23 they had invited the entire governing body, the
24 Mayor and Council and their wives to a
25 restaurant in Cliffside Park, I believe. I did
00226
1 attend with my wife and other council people and
2 their wives, so I -- I was aware that there was
3 a -- a company party.
4 Q And approximately what time did
5 you leave the function?
6 A Somewhere in the neighborhood, I would
7 say, 10:30, 11:00.
8 Q And when you left the function,
9 where did you go?
10 A I went home.
11 Q Now, you said you received a phone
12 call?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What were you doing when the phone
15 call came in?
16 A I was asleep in bed.
17 Q And do you recall who the phone
18 call was from?
19 A Yes, Charles Snyder, Sr.
20 Q And are you familiar with
21 Mr. Snyder, Sr.?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How is it that you are familiar
24 with him?
25 A Well, you know, I had been on the Council
00227
1 since 1992. He was a employee of our DPW. He
2 was actually the superintendent -- assistant
3 superintendent of Streets. And you know, I
4 mean, I'm born in the North End. I lived there
5 my entire life. I -- pretty much growing up in
6 Secaucus, Secaucus is the type of Town where you
7 really get to know everybody really very well.
8 So I knew of him. But I also knew of him
9 through his position and through my position as
10 councilman and then Mayor.
11 Q What is Mr. Snyder's current
12 position with the Town, if you know?
13 A He is a -- I'm trying to find the right
14 word, but he is sort of a department head. He
15 is in charge of Buildings & Grounds.
16 Q And to your knowledge when did he
17 attain that? When did he get that position?
18 A That position was created by the Mayor
19 and Council when the former superintendent of
20 Streets retired. There was a -- a redesign of
21 the entire DPW work force, and some people were
22 given specific charges and duties. And his was
23 Buildings & Grounds.
24 Q Do you recall when about that was?
25 A I'm going to say sometime in 2005, 2006,
00228
1 in that vicinity.
2 Q With regard to this conversation
3 that you had, the phone call that you received,
4 what, if anything, did you do in response to
5 this phone call that you received?
6 A Well, I got dressed and went to the
7 firehouse.
8 Q And when you got to the firehouse,
9 what, if anything, did you do?
10 A There was -- there was a police officer
11 there. There were several firefighters in the
12 parking lot. There were several firefighters in
13 the firehouse.
14 Q And what was everyone doing?
15 A I think at that point nothing. Milling
16 around, standing around.
17 Q And did you have a discussion with
18 the police officers who were there?
19 A I did, yes, I did.
20 MR. MULLIN: Objection, hearsay.
21 MR. BEVERE: All I am asking, if
22 he had a discussion.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Overruled.
24 MR. BEVERE: I didn't ask what was
25 stated.
00229
1 BY MR. BEVERE:
2 Q Okay. And when you -- once you
3 got to the firehouse, what, if anything, did you
4 do?
5 A I had a very, very short conversation
6 with the police officer and with Captain Snyder.
7 Q Captain Snyder would be which
8 Snyder?
9 A I'm sorry, I shouldn't say, "Captain
10 Snyder." Charles Snyder, Sr.
11 Q And what, if anything, did you
12 tell Mr. Snyder, Sr.?
13 A I told him to go home.
14 Q Did you have an understanding as
15 to what was going on at that point with the
16 police officers there?
17 A I had -- I had a rough idea. We did not
18 get into specifics. I knew that there were
19 complaints made by residents. I knew that the
20 police officers had come up there. And that was
21 really all I knew.
22 Q Were you aware of any instructions
23 that had been given to the -- given by the
24 police to anyone at the firehouse?
25 A I was, yes, I was.
00230
1 Q What instructions were you aware
2 of?
3 A Well, they had asked the firefighters
4 to -- to close the house and go home.
5 Q And what, if anything, did you
6 tell Mr. Snyder when you spoke to him?
7 A That he should close the firehouse and go
8 home.
9 Q And what was your next -- and
10 then, after you have this conversation with
11 Mr. Snyder where you said, "Close the house and
12 go home," when was the next -- what did you do
13 at that point?
14 A Well, at that point -- I think there was
15 one conversation with a -- one firefighter who
16 had already previously left and left his wallet
17 or his keys for his car or cell phone or some
18 item that was at the firehouse. There was a
19 conversation with the police officer that the
20 police officers were going to remain --
21 MR. MULLIN: Objection.
22 A -- at the fire --
23 MR. MULLIN: Excuse me. Hearsay.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
00231
1 BY MR. BEVERE:
2 Q Did you have an understanding as
3 to what the police were going to do that
4 evening?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And what was that understanding?
7 A They were going to stay at the firehouse,
8 make sure that everyone left and no one
9 returned.
10 Q Now -- and at that point what did
11 you do?
12 A I went home.
13 Q And then what was your next
14 involvement with regard to the incidents of the
15 previous night?
16 A Approximately 9:00 in the morning I had a
17 conversation with our Town attorney. I informed
18 him that I thought there might have been a
19 problem at the firehouse that night. I called
20 the -- one of our Councilmen, who was the fire
21 liaison, who, in turn -- is also the police
22 liaison, who, in turn, called the Chief of
23 Police. And we -- I spoke with the Town
24 Administrator, who I -- I believe called the
25 fire chiefs. And we had a meeting in the Town
00232
1 Hall.
2 Q Who was present for the meeting at
3 the Town Hall?
4 A I believe the three fire chiefs, the
5 Chief of Police, Charles Snyder, Sr., the
6 administrator, Anthony Iacono, myself, Chief of
7 Police and maybe a detective from the Detective
8 Bureau. I'm -- I'm not sure.
9 Q Okay. Do you have a specific
10 recollection of Anthony Iacono being at the
11 meeting?
12 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
13 Honor, leading.
14 A He may or may not have been. It was in
15 2004. I know there were conversations with the
16 Town attorney. He may have been there. He may
17 not have been there. I couldn't be sure.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Excuse me, the
19 objection was made. I sustained the objection.
20 MR. BEVERE: I didn't hear the --
21 JUDGE CURRAN: I apologize.
22 MR. MULLIN: I would like that
23 answer stricken.
24 MR. BEVERE: It's no problem.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: The question and
00233
1 the answer are both stricken.
2 BY MR. BEVERE:
3 Q What was the purpose of this
4 meeting that was held at the Town Hall?
5 A Well, I mean, obviously, there was a
6 complaint made. And we felt that if -- if there
7 was -- at that hour of the night there was
8 complaint made and police were called, I thought
9 it was important that we had some knowledge as
10 to what really went on and to just at least have
11 a knowledge of what actually happened.
12 Q And what, if anything, do you
13 recall specifically saying at the meeting?
14 A Well, I think I -- I called the meeting
15 together. You know, I called -- I told everyone
16 why we were there. I may have had conversation
17 as to whatever allegations were there. We
18 had -- we had some, I, guess conversations on
19 what happened. I don't remember the exact words
20 or who there were -- there were, like I say, six
21 or seven people in the room.
22 Q What, if anything, did the Chief
23 of Police advise at that meeting?
24 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
25 Honor, hearsay.
00234
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained. You can
2 rephrase it.
3 BY MR. BEVERE:
4 Q Who did you have discussions with
5 at the meeting?
6 A The Chief of Police. I believe I had a
7 telephone discussion with the Town attorney.
8 And -- and generally the discussions then were
9 just broad, across-the-table discussions. The
10 fire chiefs --
11 Q Did anyone from Engine Company
12 Number 2 that was present at the meeting
13 indicate what had happened that evening?
14 A Yes, there were -- there were discussions
15 of -- from -- from that firehouse, yes, there
16 was, from Mr. Snyder.
17 Q From Mr. Snyder?
18 A I believe so, yes.
19 Q And at some point -- well, do you
20 recall what Mr. Snyder said about what happened
21 the night before?
22 A I -- I think there was a -- basically a
23 denial of -- of any -- of anything or --
24 MR. BEVERE: I'm sorry, Your
25 Honor.
00235
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes or no question.
2 The question was --
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: -- do you recall
5 what Mr. Snyder said about what happened the
6 night before?
7 BY MR. BEVERE:
8 Q The answer is?
9 A No.
10 Q You don't have a specific
11 recollection?
12 A No.
13 Q Okay. At some point --
14 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I will
15 move to strike the answer to the previous
16 question.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
18 MR. BEVERE: Apologize, Your
19 Honor.
20 BY MR. BEVERE:
21 Q During the course of the meeting
22 did anyone from the Town advise the members of
23 Engine Company Number 2 as to what the Town was
24 going to do?
25 A I believe so, yes.
00236
1 Q Okay. And what was told to the
2 members of Engine Company Number 2?
3 A Excuse me?
4 Q What was told to them?
5 MR. MULLIN: Objection. By whom?
6 MR. BEVERE: Okay. I'll ask.
7 BY MR. BEVERE:
8 Q Do you -- what, if anything, did
9 the Chief of Police say was going to be done?
10 A Okay.
11 MR. MULLIN: Hold on. I may have
12 an objection.
13 MR. BEVERE: Judge, this is not
14 hearsay.
15 MR. MULLIN: Can we have a
16 sidebar, so we can have maybe an explanation?
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
18 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
19 discussion is held.)
20 MR. MULLIN: When counsel asks
21 what so-and-so said at the meeting, unless there
22 is some set of limiting instruction, then it's
23 just pure hearsay, unless there is some
24 exception I'm not aware of. But it seems like
25 classical hearsay. I mean, the Chief is going
00237
1 to come in to testify. He can say what he said
2 at the meeting. If there is some other basis,
3 you know, I haven't heard. But I thought I
4 would go sidebar to see if there was some other
5 limited basis to offer this.
6 MR. BEVERE: Judge, you know --
7 you know, I will -- I will ask him a different
8 question, which is fine. I will ask him --
9 JUDGE CURRAN: I think, just so we
10 don't have to keep coming back --
11 MR. BEVERE: Yeah.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: -- I -- same thing
13 would be true about similar questions for
14 anybody else at the meeting.
15 MR. BEVERE: Yeah, I --
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
17 MR. BEVERE: I will be happy to
18 ask him.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
20 MR. BEVERE: Then at the
21 meeting -- I'll stay away from things people
22 told him.
23 MR. MULLIN: Let me say this.
24 MR. BEVERE: You know, I disagree
25 it's hearsay, Judge, but understand Your Honor's
00238
1 objection.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Your objection is
3 preserved for the record.
4 MR. BEVERE: And someone's
5 instruction to someone else would be hearsay,
6 but that -- but we're past that. So I will
7 abide by Your Honor's ruling.
8 MR. MULLIN: If -- if counsel
9 wishes to ask whether Chuck Snyder, Sr. used an
10 expletive at this meeting, I wish to explore
11 that.
12 MR. PARIS: That's hearsay, Judge.
13 MR. MULLIN: It's not hearsay,
14 Judge, because it's not offered for the truth of
15 the matter. And you can understand --
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Then I will go back
17 to my same argument as it's the truth of what
18 was said, not the truth of the statement,
19 itself; and everybody will hate it. But at
20 least then the plaintiffs will have an objection
21 on the same basis as yours, Mr. Bevere. So the
22 Appellate Division may just throw out the whole
23 decision.
24 MR. BEVERE: That's fine, Judge.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
00239
1 MR. BEVERE: We'll go forward.
2 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
3 concluded.)
4 BY MR. BEVERE:
5 Q Trying to remember where I was.
6 Now, Mr. Mayor, during the course of this
7 meeting -- let me ask you a different way. At
8 some point did you leave the meeting?
9 A I -- I think two or three times I may
10 have gotten up and to go to my office. My phone
11 was ringing. I know I did receive one call from
12 the Town attorney because initially I had --
13 think I had reached out to him and I didn't --
14 didn't get him. I -- one call may have been
15 from my wife telling me that the Town attorney
16 was trying to reach me. I -- I don't remember.
17 There were several times I walked out of the
18 meeting and -- and walked back in, two, possibly
19 three times.
20 Q At some point did you leave the
21 building with anyone from the meeting?
22 A When the meeting was completed, yes.
23 Q Tell us, how -- how did the
24 meeting end?
25 A Well, the -- basically myself and -- and
00240
1 the Police Chief were asking the fire chiefs
2 what happened. The fire chiefs basically gave
3 us a report as to what they thought happened.
4 There was some denial. There was some --
5 MR. MULLIN: Objection to denial,
6 Your Honor. Witness -- I ask that it be
7 stricken.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sorry, I can't
9 even hear you, Mr. Mullin.
10 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I object
11 to any mention to any denials. We have
12 witnesses that took the Fifth here. I don't
13 want any hearsay testimony on so-called denials.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained. I am
15 going to strike that portion of the answer --
16 THE WITNESS: All right.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: -- on the basis --
18 MR. BEVERE: Judge, all right.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Do you want to go
20 to sidebar, Mr. Bevere?
21 MR. BEVERE: No, that's fine, Your
22 Honor, I won't go to sidebar.
23 BY MR. BEVERE:
24 Q Okay. So without telling us
25 anything that anybody told you --
00241
1 A Okay.
2 Q -- just tell us how is it that the
3 meeting ended?
4 A Okay. As the meeting ended the -- the
5 Chief of Police stayed on. We had a
6 conversation with our Town attorney. Both the
7 Chief of Police and the Town attorney concurred
8 that there was obviously something here that was
9 of a very, very serious nature and that it was
10 a -- very, very possible accusations of hate
11 crimes that would more than likely and would
12 probably be investigated by the Prosecutor's
13 Office. We were -- we spoke to the Town
14 attorney. I -- I believe we had conversation
15 with the Town attorney about visiting the --
16 MR. MULLIN: Objection, hearsay.
17 A -- residents.
18 MR. MULLIN: Hearsay, Your Honor.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
20 BY MR. BEVERE:
21 A We then decided to -- the Chief of Police
22 and I decided, along with the Fire Chief, that
23 we would drive up to the residence and ring the
24 doorbell of the -- of the complainants to
25 express to them that we were fully aware of what
00242
1 had happened, we were aware of the allegations
2 and that they would be fully investigated.
3 Q And what happened when you got to
4 the residence of Mr. deVries and Mr. Carter?
5 A We rang the doorbell, and one of the
6 residents came out. I identified myself, and
7 they slammed the door in my face. And we -- the
8 three of us looked at one another and decided
9 the best thing to do would be to leave.
10 Q Are you aware that at some point
11 the firehouse was closed for non-emergency
12 purposes?
13 A Yes, it was.
14 Q Were you involved in that
15 decision?
16 A The decision was basically made by the
17 fire chiefs. We were informed of the decisions.
18 Q Are you aware that at some point
19 thereafter the firehouse was reopened for
20 non-emergency purposes?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And were you involved in that
23 decision?
24 A Again, it was a decision that was made.
25 We were informed that the decision was made, I
00243
1 should say, by the Fire Chief.
2 Q And at some point thereafter did
3 you receive a message on your answering machine
4 from Mr. Carter?
5 A I -- I received a -- a message. I don't
6 know exactly who it was from, but it was a
7 message. And in fact, it may have been that
8 same day. My wife called me, informed me. I
9 immediately called the Town attorney. Town
10 attorney informed me to inform the Chief of
11 Police.
12 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
13 Honor.
14 Q Let's -- without telling us what
15 the Town attorney told you --
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- what did you do with the
18 message?
19 A Well, I -- I called my wife back and told
20 her to save it. And we called the Police
21 Department and had the Police Department come up
22 and tape the message.
23 Q Prior to -- sorry, strike that.
24 MR. BEVERE: Give me a minute,
25 Judge; I might be close to done, so -- or done.
00244
1 Q Without telling us, Mr. Mayor, as
2 to what anyone told you, what decision was made
3 in late April 2004 as to how the Town was going
4 to respond to this incident? In other words,
5 what was the Town going to do?
6 MR. MULLIN: Objection as to what
7 the Town was going to do. It can solicit
8 hearsay.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: It could, but now
10 Mr. Bevere has made it clear please don't answer
11 with hearsay.
12 BY MR. BEVERE:
13 Q And if you can't give us the
14 answer without telling us what someone told you,
15 tell me that.
16 A I -- I think you better rephrase that.
17 I'm just a little bit confused. I think I know
18 what happened, but if I can't say -- you know,
19 this was four years ago. If I can't say as I
20 recollect it, then it's very, very difficult to
21 give an answer.
22 Q In order for you to answer the
23 question would you have to tell me what people
24 told you?
25 A Absolutely.
00245
1 MR. BEVERE: Okay. Then I will
2 not ask the question, Your Honor. I have no
3 further questions for the Mayor. Thank you.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
5 MR. MULLIN: I'll be ready in one
6 second.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Should we go off
8 the record for a moment?
9 MR. MULLIN: Yeah, just a second.
10 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
11 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
12 off the record.)
13 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
14 Q Sir --
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Back on the record.
16 COURT CLERK: On the record.
17 BY MR. MULLIN:
18 Q Sir, you were asked the question
19 by Mr. Bevere whether you were involved in the
20 decision to reopen the firehouse; and you said
21 that the fire chiefs had made that decision, the
22 implication being that you really weren't
23 involved in that decision. Was that right?
24 A The fire chiefs sent us a recommendation
25 to reopen it, correct.
00246
1 Q But the ultimate decision to
2 reopen that firehouse was yours and the Town
3 Council's, correct?
4 A I -- I don't believe so. The fire -- the
5 fire chiefs were the ones that originally closed
6 the firehouse. We -- we were merely kept
7 informed.
8 Q Okay. Let me just -- I'm going to
9 show you your deposition.
10 MR. MULLIN: And you can turn to
11 page 57, line 11, Counsel. Page 57, line 11.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: This is the Mayor's
13 deposition?
14 MR. MULLIN: This is the Mayor's
15 deposition of June 12th, 2006.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
17 MR. MULLIN: And I am drawing
18 attention to page 57, line 11.
19 BY MR. MULLIN:
20 Q Do you need some help with that?
21 Do you want me to point it out to you? You got
22 it?
23 A Yes, I got it.
24 Q Now. There you were asked the
25 question, "Did you participate in the
00247
1 decision-making process as to whether or not the
2 firehouse should open?"
3 And your answer was, "Initially there
4 was an order to close the firehouse for all
5 activities other than fires. There was a period
6 of time after that that the governing body
7 allowed the firefighters -- the firehouse to
8 open back up."
9 A That's correct.
10 Q "At this point I'm not sure what
11 it was, but it was somewhat of a few months or
12 something like that. I know that the firehouse
13 was closed for all activities for a period of
14 time and then at one point we did allow them to
15 go back into the firehouse because the firehouse
16 was used for training and other duties, cleaning
17 of equipment and training and actual training
18 and actual training sessions that are held on
19 evenings and weekends."
20 Next question. "So you participated in
21 that decision?"
22 And the next answer was, "Yes."
23 So the answer is -- the answer that you
24 gave under oath on June 12th, 2006 is that you
25 did participate in the decision to reopen the
00248
1 firehouse, true? That was your answer then,
2 correct, sir?
3 A That's correct, but I think the answer I
4 gave her was that answer was based on the Fire
5 Chief's recommendation to the governing body.
6 Q I understand. They made a
7 recommendation?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q The governing body?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And then the governing body --
12 A That's correct.
13 Q -- decided to open --
14 A No, no, the fire chiefs decided to open
15 it.
16 Q All right. Here under oath, sir,
17 you said you didn't participate in the decision
18 and in your dep you said you did; isn't that
19 true?
20 A Well, we participated in a decision based
21 on the fire chiefs' recommendations to us.
22 Q And it wasn't in this passage I
23 read. You said that it -- the firehouse was --
24 you say, "I'm not sure what it was, but it was
25 somewhat of a few months or something like
00249
1 that." In fact, the firehouse was reopened five
2 days after the incident of April 25th, 2004; are
3 you aware of that, sir?
4 A That's very possible, yes.
5 Q You talked about going from the
6 meeting of Sunday morning with all those folks
7 you mentioned at that meeting. That was at the
8 Town Hall caucus room, right?
9 A That was -- it's a, yes, meeting room
10 alongside the mayor's office.
11 Q And then you said you and Police
12 Chief Corcoran --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- and was it Fire Chief
15 Walters --
16 A I believe so, yes.
17 Q -- drove over to the Carter and
18 deVries residence, right?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And this was literally the same
21 day of the incident, right?
22 A It was Sunday morning.
23 Q And the incident happened in the
24 early morning hours of Sunday, April 25th, 2004,
25 right?
00250
1 A Yes.
2 Q So you went over there, and you
3 never -- you didn't call in advance, right?
4 A I -- I -- we didn't have a phone number.
5 Q You described making certain phone
6 calls during this meeting. You told the jury
7 that during the meeting you went out and made
8 certain phone calls?
9 A I returned calls from my wife.
10 Q You returned calls, I understand.
11 But was that on a cell phone? Is that what you
12 told the jury?
13 A No.
14 Q Is that a regular, hard-wired
15 phone?
16 A Yes.
17 Q All I'm asking is this: Before
18 you attempted to go visit Carter and deVries,
19 you didn't call the Carter and deVries residence
20 up and say, "I would like to come over and see
21 you," right?
22 A No.
23 Q You just showed up on their
24 doorstep unannounced, true?
25 A That's correct, yes.
00251
1 Q Okay. And was anybody in uniform?
2 A No, no, I was -- it -- you know, in a
3 pair of slacks.
4 Q You were in civilian clothes?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you don't know anything about
7 the psychological condition of Carter and
8 deVries at that moment a few hours after the
9 attack on their home, right?
10 A No.
11 Q You don't know that? Excuse me
12 one sec. I am going to ask you a yes or no
13 question. Tim Carter left you a voice mail on
14 your answering machine on May 1, 2004, right?
15 Yes or no? Didn't you testify to that before?
16 A On May 1?
17 Q Yes, May 1, 2000 --
18 A I don't recall specifically the date. I
19 said there was a voice message left on my
20 answering machine at my home. I'm not going to
21 testify to date because I don't remember exactly
22 what date it was.
23 Q Okay. But you agree that Tim
24 Carter left you a voice mail on your answering
25 machine?
00252
1 A Someone. I didn't say it was Tim Carter.
2 I don't know who left it. It was a voice -- a
3 man's voice. I don't recollect the exact
4 language of it. It had something to do with
5 some sort of a acronym of a gay person. It was
6 very loud, very disturbing. And -- and that's
7 all I really remember of it.
8 Q And then you turned that tape over
9 to the police?
10 A To the Police Department, yes.
11 Q Did the call -- and this is -- now
12 I'm referring to the trial transcript, trial day
13 three, line 32 -- I mean page 32, line 25. Did
14 the tape begin -- you won't have that there --
15 "Hi, this is Tim Carter. I am one of the homos
16 that lives by the Fire Station. We just had
17 some firemen come by and yell, "The homos are
18 home. The homos are home." They came out to
19 the front door, then they went up the street.
20 And we called the police?" Does that sound like
21 part of the message that was left?
22 A It could very well be, yes.
23 Q Did the message say, "But I want
24 to tell you something, Mayor Elwell. I don't
25 know what the heck is going on, but I don't
00253
1 understand why you and the Fire Chief cannot
2 control and, at this point, sir, these firemen.
3 I don't understand it. I don't understand it.
4 If I were the mayor of this Town, I would read
5 them such the riot act that they would not go
6 anywhere near here." Does that refresh your
7 recollection as to what was on that tape?
8 A It -- it could very well be.
9 Q Does it say, sir, "I have always
10 liked you. And I know these other people. And
11 I know you cannot control everything. But I am
12 upset right now"? Did he say that?
13 A Yeah, that's -- it's -- it's -- it sounds
14 like the message I remember.
15 Q Did he say, "But I am upset right
16 now because we're scared. We're scrambling to
17 get out of this Town, okay"? Did he say that on
18 the tape? Does that sound familiar?
19 A You know what, I -- I haven't listened to
20 the tape in four or five years. It's -- I don't
21 know if I listened to the entire tape.
22 Q Do you remember him saying, "And
23 we are scared of this place"? Do you remember
24 that?
25 A I'm not going to say he did or didn't.
00254
1 Q And sir, one thing we can agree
2 on -- and this is just a yes or no -- after you
3 got that tape you never attempted to call -- you
4 never called Tim Carter, right? True?
5 A I was ordered not to.
6 Q Well, that's what you say.
7 A You're asking for the truth.
8 Q I am asking a yes or no question.
9 A By the Town attorney not to --
10 Q I don't want to hear --
11 A -- not to tell anyone -- and that's all I
12 can --
13 Q I don't want you telling me what
14 you think people told you.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Stop. Hold on.
16 A It's not what I think.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mayor.
18 Mr. Mayor.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: With all due
21 respect --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: -- you may control
24 Secaucus. You do not control this courtroom.
25 THE WITNESS: I understand.
00255
1 JUDGE CURRAN: This is what I am
2 going to do.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: I am going to
5 strike that question and all the answer.
6 From now on the instructions are
7 clear. This is not meant just for you, sir.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: This is for every
10 witness. If the attorney under the rules says,
11 "This is a yes or no question," you may answer
12 it, "Yes," you may answer it, "No" or you may
13 answer, "I cannot answer that question." Those
14 are the only alternatives.
15 Please ask your next question.
16 MR. MULLIN: I will ask the
17 question again as a yes or no question.
18 BY MR. MULLIN:
19 Q So I only want a yes or no answer.
20 After Mr. Carter left that message on your
21 phone, you have never called him back, true?
22 A True.
23 MR. BEVERE: Nothing further.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
25 MR. BEVERE: Just one question.
00256
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
2 Q Why didn't you return Mr. Carter's
3 phone call?
4 MR. MULLIN: I am going to object
5 to that.
6 A Because we were informed by the Town
7 attorney --
8 MR. MULLIN: Judge, I am going to
9 ask this witness not to give us a hearsay speech
10 about what someone else he says said to him.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: You can rephrase
12 it, but that appears to me to be asking for
13 hearsay. You are free to rephrase the question,
14 Mr. Bevere; but obviously, the answer can be --
15 cannot be, "Because I was told" X, Y and Z.
16 It's pure hearsay.
17 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I have no
18 further questions for the Mayor.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin, any
20 further questions?
21 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I didn't ask
22 any other questions, so I object to Mr. Mullin
23 asking any other questions.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: I apologize. You
25 are quite right, Mr. Bevere, 1,000 percent
00257
1 correct.
2 MR. BEVERE: Thank you.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: However I am going
4 to ask the jury under the rules if they have any
5 questions. Is there anyone? All right. Thank
6 you. We will go off the record. The jury does
7 have a question.
8 MR. MULLIN: Should we go sidebar?
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Yeah. Just wait
10 one sec. Do we have all the questions? Not
11 yet? Okay. While -- we will go back on the
12 record, please.
13 COURT CLERK: On the record.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. While
15 we're waiting for the questions I am going to do
16 something, Ladies and Gentlemen, that you seldom
17 see. I am going to strike my own comment that I
18 made in regard to the Mayor may be -- I believe
19 I said, "may control Secaucus." I should not
20 have said that. However, it was important that
21 at that point the proper -- under the rules
22 questioning continue properly. And I am going
23 to strike that, which means you may not, as you
24 know, consider that in your deliberations. Okay
25 that's my comment. Thank you.
00258
1 We will go to sidebar.
2 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
3 discussion is held.)
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
5 MR. BEVERE: Judge, before we
6 start I want to thank you because I was going to
7 ask Your Honor -- I was going to ask Your Honor
8 to curative -- I was going to ask for a curative
9 instruction as to the fact --
10 JUDGE CURRAN: I wish -- and I try
11 hard not to be but --
12 MS. SMITH: You are the calmest
13 judge I have ever been in front of, Judge.
14 MR. BEVERE: Secondly, Judge, I
15 would like to go on the record --
16 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sorry, can you
17 move the microphone? We can't hear Mr. Mullin.
18 MR. BEVERE: Just so my exception
19 is noted to the last question that I asked and
20 that's clear for the record it's my position
21 that what he was instructed to do is not
22 hearsay. I want that to be on the record.
23 MS. SMITH: That's not what you
24 asked.
25 MR. MULLIN: I think you just
00259
1 asked why.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Why.
3 MS. SMITH: And he started to give
4 hearsay.
5 MR. MULLIN: I want to make it
6 clear; I don't object to him talking about what
7 he thought or felt or understood. But -- but he
8 was giving a speech about what he was told, and
9 he kept trying to give that speech. And that --
10 that -- that unlimited question why just opened
11 the door, and he started to give the speech
12 again.
13 MR. BEVERE: If his reason as to
14 why he didn't do something is because he was
15 instructed by Town attorney not to do it, why is
16 that hearsay? That's not hearsay.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: For one thing, you
18 are going to have the attorney in here tomorrow,
19 I believe, number one.
20 Number two, I don't honestly know
21 exactly what his answer is going to be. But
22 when Mr. Mullin asked him a similar question
23 earlier, he started with saying, "Because I was
24 told" such and such. Now, presumably he has
25 been prepared, as is proper, for the questions
00260
1 that he would receive. And there is a way for
2 him to have answered that question without using
3 hearsay, but my concern was that it appeared to
4 me --
5 MR. BEVERE: Without saying, "I
6 was told by the Town attorney"?
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Oh, yeah, there are
8 lots of ways.
9 MR. MULLIN: He could have told
10 what his understanding was at the moment.
11 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, if his
12 understanding is based upon what the Town
13 attorney told him, I mean, that's -- it's not
14 going in to prove the truth of what the Town
15 attorney said. That's hearsay.
16 MR. BEVERE: That's hearsay.
17 That's my position, Judge.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: For example -- I
19 apologize, Mr. Paris.
20 MR. PARIS: No, it's --
21 JUDGE CURRAN: We don't know what
22 he was going to say. But, for example, if he
23 said, "Because I was told by the attorney that"
24 such and such is, you know, not required or that
25 this is required or whatever, that's different
00261
1 than his just saying, "Because it was my
2 understanding that that would not be proper."
3 Then you could go on with other -- or something
4 like that. Then you could go on with other
5 questions.
6 MR. PARIS: But then --
7 JUDGE CURRAN: My concern was
8 he -- this is not an unsophisticated witness;
9 and he appeared to me to very much be trying to
10 get out, "I was told by the attorney," which he
11 should have known was not a proper way to do it.
12 MR. PARIS: But again, we take
13 exception to that it's really --
14 JUDGE CURRAN: The exception --
15 MR. BEVERE: Thank you.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: -- and the
17 objection are certainly noted.
18 MR. BEVERE: Thank you.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: And it's preserved
20 for the record.
21 MR. BEVERE: Thank you.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. We have two
23 questions. First question: Whose decision is
24 it -- this is underlined -- ultimately to close
25 or open a firehouse?
00262
1 Second question. You stated that
2 you may not have listened to the entire tape.
3 Why would you not have listened to the entire
4 tape left by Mr. Carter?
5 Mr. Mullin, I will -- just so
6 that everybody can look at it and read it, read
7 the questions.
8 MS. SMITH: Can we -- C-9, Your
9 Honor?
10 JUDGE CURRAN: C-9, I believe.
11 (Whereupon, index card with two
12 jury questions is received and marked as
13 Court Exhibit C-9 for Identification.)
14 MR. MULLIN: Yeah, I have no
15 objection to this question.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere,
17 Mr. Paris, any --
18 MR. BEVERE: No problem.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. So we will
20 ask them both again. Everybody will get the
21 follow-ups. Thank you.
22 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
23 concluded.)
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, I am going to
25 read to you two questions one at a time. These
00263
1 are questions from the jury. I would appreciate
2 it if you would address your answers toward the
3 jurors. Sometimes witnesses, people look at me
4 because I read the question.
5 After you answer the first
6 question, first Mr. Bevere, then Mr. Mullin, if
7 they wish, will have the opportunity to ask you
8 follow-up questions. Then we will move on to
9 the second question.
10 First question: Whose decision
11 is it ultimately to close or open a firehouse?
12 THE WITNESS: According to the
13 policy of the Town of Secaucus, I believe that
14 decision comes under the Fire Chiefs.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Mr.
16 Bevere, any follow-up?
17 MR. BEVERE: No, Your Honor, thank
18 you.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin?
20 MR. MULLIN: Yes, I think I have a
21 follow-up question.
22 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
23 Q Sir, under the code, under section
24 12-18, under suspension or disbanding of
25 companies, it says, "The Mayor and Council of
00264
1 the Town of Secaucus may" -- "The Mayor and
2 Council of the Town of Secaucus may at their
3 sole discretion suspend or disband any company
4 from service if it is deemed to be in the best
5 interests of the Town." Do you dispute that
6 that's what the code says?
7 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I am going to
8 object to the relevance of that provision as to
9 whose authority is to close a firehouse.
10 MR. MULLIN: That's closing a
11 firehouse, suspending or disbanding a fire
12 company.
13 MR. BEVERE: I disagree.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: I will note the
15 objection on the record.
16 BY MR. MULLIN:
17 Q Sir, do you agree that that's what
18 the code says and said?
19 A If you are reading our code, I -- I can't
20 deny the code.
21 MR. MULLIN: Nothing further.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
23 The next question: You stated
24 that you may not have listened to the entire
25 tape. Why would you not have listened to the
00265
1 entire message left by Mr. Carter?
2 THE WITNESS: I -- I think -- I
3 think the reason was it was somewhat garbled.
4 I -- I understood -- when I did get the message,
5 I understood immediately what it was about. I
6 understood the Carter Family, their fears and
7 their -- their concerns.
8 However, we were at one point
9 warned that we were not to deal with this, that
10 this was going to be dealt with by the
11 Prosecutor's Office. So at that point I felt I
12 heard enough, immediately called the Town
13 attorney. The Town attorney's answer to me was
14 call the Police Department.
15 I then called the Police
16 Department and asked the Police Department to
17 come up and to either take the tape or copy the
18 tape, do whatever they could do and enter it in
19 as evidence. And that's -- I did hear most of
20 it. I'm not going to say I didn't listen to the
21 entire thing; but to sit here and answer
22 everything he was saying, I don't recollect all
23 those words. I'm not saying they weren't there.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere?
25 MR. BEVERE: No questions, Your
00266
1 Honor.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin?
3 MR. MULLIN: One second.
4 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
5 Q You're not claiming, sir, that you
6 didn't have the right, as the Mayor of Secaucus,
7 to shut down the social wing of the North End
8 firehouse? You're not saying that, are you?
9 MR. BEVERE: I am going to object.
10 It has nothing to do with this question.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
12 MR. MULLIN: Let me look back at
13 the Mayor's question and answer, Your Honor, if
14 I may just have a minute.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
16 BY MR. MULLIN:
17 Q Sir, you just testified as part of
18 your answer to the juror's question, "However,
19 we were warned at one point that we were not to
20 deal with this," referring to Carter's tape,
21 "that this was going to be dealt with by the
22 Prosecutor's Office." That's what you said.
23 And my question to you is: Were you
24 under the belief that you didn't have the power,
25 as Mayor, in response to Carter's tape message
00267
1 to, once again, shut down the social wing of the
2 firehouse? Is that what you are telling this
3 jury, you didn't have the power?
4 MR. BEVERE: That goes beyond the
5 scope of the question.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: With all due
7 respect, I will note your objection. And it's
8 preserved for appeal, but it's -- there is a
9 nexus in the question. The Mayor may answer it
10 or in any way he feels appropriate.
11 BY MR. MULLIN:
12 A Well, I think the message came that
13 day -- actually, I believe the day of the
14 incident. Later that afternoon it was turned
15 over to the police. At that period of time the
16 firehouse was closed. There were police
17 officers. And we requested the Chief of Police
18 put police officers in plain clothes in that
19 vicinity 24 hours a day to monitor the area.
20 And that -- that continued.
21 And the request was also put out that
22 there be plain clothes police officers
23 monitoring the area, even when the firehouse was
24 reopened for training. That -- that was
25 something we -- we requested be kept as long as
00268
1 the Chief of Police felt necessary and as long
2 as if there were complaints.
3 I was aware of complaints that were
4 made of people driving by and yelling very, very
5 disparaging remarks out. We were aware of that.
6 Every time we received a call or a complaint
7 about that, they were immediately forwarded to
8 the Police Department. And -- and I know that
9 all of these things were treated in a very, very
10 serious nature.
11 Q And you never shut down the social
12 wing of the North End Firehouse again while
13 Carter and deVries lived there during the next
14 six months, true?
15 A My answer was at that time the social
16 wing was closed. Of the tape, that was your
17 question?
18 Q The tape was made after the fire
19 was reopened; don't you recall that? That's why
20 he was calling.
21 A And then I could be wrong on that.
22 MR. MULLIN: No further questions.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere?
24 MR. BEVERE: Nothing further,
25 thank you.
00269
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir.
2 You may step down.
3 (Whereupon, the witness is
4 excused.)
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
6 Gentlemen, we are going to excuse you for the
7 day. The attorneys have some matters that we
8 are going to need to put on the record.
9 Two things. First of all,
10 tomorrow we would appreciate it if you would
11 report at 10:00, rather than at 9:30, because
12 there are things that we have to put on the
13 record earlier.
14 And secondly, one of your members
15 asked about Friday. I mentioned last week that
16 there was a possibility that we may need to ask
17 you to report here on Friday. The attorneys and
18 I may need to prepare on Friday, but you will
19 not need to report on Friday. They have been, I
20 think, very professional in arranging schedules
21 and cooperating so that jurors will not need to
22 report here on Friday. So I just want to let
23 you know that now so that you could plan.
24 Basically, you will need to be
25 here tomorrow from 10 until, again, usually 4,
00270
1 4:30. And then you will not need to report
2 again until Monday. Are there any questions
3 about that? All right. I will remind you
4 please do not discuss the case among yourselves.
5 Please do not discuss it with anyone else. See
6 you tomorrow. Thank you.
7 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
9 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
10 (Whereupon, a discussion is held
11 off the record.)
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Does counsel need
13 to put anything on the record?
14 MS. SMITH: I would like to know
15 when we're going to know --
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. We will go
17 back on the record, please.
18 MS. SMITH: Mr. Bevere says he
19 doesn't know if he is calling Walters.
20 MR. MULLIN: Should we go sidebar?
21 JUDGE CURRAN: We can go to
22 sidebar, if you'd like, sure.
23 MR. MULLIN: Just to keep it
24 quiet.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
00271
1 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
2 discussion is held.)
3 JUDGE CURRAN: We are back on the
4 record at sidebar.
5 COURT CLERK: On the record.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
7 Miss Smith.
8 MS. SMITH: I would just -- you
9 know, we complied with our agreement every
10 single day of this trial. At 4:00 we told
11 counsel who was up the next day. I just would
12 like to know when we're going to know if you are
13 calling Chief Walters or not?
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Didn't Mr. Bevere
15 say --
16 MS. SMITH: He wasn't sure he was
17 calling.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: O'Keeffe is first,
19 then Walters, Buckley and then the Police Chief.
20 Is that wrong?
21 MS. SMITH: Then he said he would
22 not call Walters.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Think about
24 Walters.
25 MS. SMITH: I would just like to
00272
1 know when we're going to know. It's a big
2 witness to prep for.
3 MR. MULLIN: Can we have an
4 agreement by 6 p.m. counsel will let us know?
5 MR. PARIS: How are we going to
6 know within the next two hours? Dan said he was
7 going to review dep reads with an eye towards
8 not calling Walters, okay?
9 MR. MULLIN: You mean the readings
10 that we did?
11 MR. PARIS: Right. And he said
12 that he would determine tonight whether or not
13 he was going to call him with an eye towards not
14 calling him.
15 Now, that's happened in the past,
16 when -- when we had lined up, I believe it was,
17 Corcoran, Elwell and Iacono and we had them all
18 ready to go, we had them all prepared in terms
19 of, you know, appearing, et cetera, et cetera;
20 and then we were told that the dep reads would
21 be used, instead of calling the witnesses. So
22 we were all prepared and ready to go with them.
23 We had made arrangements for them to be here.
24 MS. SMITH: You were told at 4:00
25 the day before or sooner. That's the point.
00273
1 MR. MULLIN: Usually --
2 MS. SMITH: You were told usually
3 long before 4:00, but certainly by 4:00 you knew
4 who was up the next day every single day of this
5 trial. That was our agreement.
6 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I know who is
7 up tomorrow. I am thinking of eliminating one,
8 but I know who is up tomorrow. I am not saying
9 I don't know who is going to testify tomorrow.
10 Right now I have O'Keeffe, Walters, I have
11 Buckley and I have Corcoran.
12 MS. SMITH: So we have to be
13 prepared for Walters?
14 MR. BEVERE: I am going to read
15 the transcript and see if I can dispense with
16 Walters, if I can. I would like to be able
17 to -- I can't make that representation right
18 now.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Then -- and
20 you can't make it by 6? You need to make that
21 decision tonight?
22 MR. BEVERE: I need to make the
23 decision tonight, no question about it, because
24 I got to get him in here.
25 MR. MULLIN: Judge, let's make it
00274
1 by 7. Because what happens if they don't tell
2 me? I am wasting a couple hours.
3 MR. BEVERE: 7:00.
4 MR. MULLIN: 7:00 is fine.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: I can't imagine you
6 are going to also be telling him later than
7 7:00.
8 MR. MULLIN: E-mail is fine.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: 7 p.m.
10 MR. BEVERE: 7:00 is fine.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. What other
12 issues do we have? What about any cases you
13 want to rely on tomorrow morning in arguments?
14 MS. SMITH: I have some.
15 MR. MULLIN: I can pull some out
16 and give him a couple cites.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: If you want to
18 e-mail them to my law clerk tonight, that's
19 fine. I just want to have her pull them. I
20 will tell you, frankly, by the time I pull them
21 and get them printed, I'm so slow, it's so much
22 easier if she can just pull them for me. That's
23 all. So if you want to e-mail them to her,
24 that's fine. Any other problems or scheduling,
25 that kind of thing?
00275
1 MR. MULLIN: So we have tomorrow
2 O'Keeffe -- the order is O'Keeffe, Walters,
3 Buckley, Corcoran and may eliminate Walters?
4 MR. BEVERE: That is correct.
5 MR. MULLIN: Tonight --
6 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, in terms
7 of cases, just to start off with, so we don't --
8 we don't need a huge e-mail, obviously, we are
9 going to rely upon the cases that we had argued
10 in summary judgment. Obviously, we are going to
11 use those cases.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Part of the -- I
13 apologize. Part of the problem with that is I
14 want to make sure that I have got all the
15 cases -- you know, if you just say that to me,
16 with all due respect, I'd love this to be the
17 only case I have got right now. Even if you
18 just, you know, give me a cite or Xerox the
19 page, something, just so that it's honed in, so
20 I'm sure I'm prepared.
21 MR. PARIS: Okay.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: And the other thing
23 I should also say is on Friday -- I don't think
24 there will be an objection to this -- it really
25 gives them a problem around here if I don't do
00276
1 Special Civil in the morning because the 200 --
2 not really, but the lot -- lot of people have to
3 get shifted around to other judges, who are also
4 busy. So we can count on just working in the
5 afternoon, if that's okay with you.
6 MR. MULLIN: That's fine.
7 MS. SMITH: We are not going to
8 have -- I'm sorry, I thought this morning you
9 said we needed their jury -- when were --
10 MR. PARIS: Friday at noon.
11 MS. SMITH: So we are not going to
12 have it in any advance of the conference?
13 MR. MULLIN: We will have to sit
14 down with it at the conference.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Maybe tomorrow we
16 can go through.
17 MR. PARIS: We can give you a
18 heads up. You believe that the -- that the
19 statute is being implemented by way of LAD.
20 Obviously, we believe, based upon the
21 legislative history which we previously argued,
22 that it's modeled on 1983.
23 MR. BEVERE: I will tell you what
24 I did, Judge. I took the Federal 1983 jury
25 charges.
00277
1 JUDGE CURRAN: You said that.
2 MR. BEVERE: That's what they are,
3 Federal 1983 jury charge.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: We don't totally
5 have to do charges tomorrow. What we really
6 have to do first thing tomorrow are the motions.
7 And that will kind of lead us to the charge
8 Friday afternoon. Now, if everybody says, Hey,
9 you know, I don't think we're ready to do the
10 charges on Friday afternoon, that's not the end
11 of the world either because around here there is
12 always something. So it's not as if I'm, you
13 know, going to cancel any of those cases or
14 anything. So we'll work it out.
15 MR. MULLIN: Judge, I'm probably
16 just tired; but I'm trying to figure out do you
17 want us to -- will we actually be arguing the
18 motions tomorrow morning, is that the plan, at
19 9:00?
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes.
21 MR. MULLIN: That's what we'll do.
22 Gotcha.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: That's what
24 Mr. Paris had said.
25 MR. MULLIN: Gotcha.
00278
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Anything else?
2 Okay. Thank you.
3 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
4 MR. BEVERE: Thank you, Judge.
5 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
6 concluded.)
7 (Whereupon, the proceeding is
8 concluded at 4:15 p.m.)
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00279
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 I, TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, a Certified Court
4 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
5 Jersey, do hereby certify that the foregoing is
6 a true and accurate transcript of the
7 stenographic notes as taken by and before me, on
8 the date and place hereinbefore set forth.
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19 TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, C.C.R.
20 LICENSE NO. XIO1983
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